Posts by JosephMalik

124

Lets Debate the Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come on everyone, let us reason on the trinity doctrine using the bible!.

you know there has to be at least 3 big long trinity threads on here per month... so i figured i'd go ahead and start one for november.. the bible says that there is only one true god who is god by nature, the only god who deserves our worship and prayer.

jesus taught that his father is god.

JosephMalik

1 Cor 3:16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

1 Cor 6:19 Do you not know that your body is a temple 8 of the holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?

IssacAustin,

And that means what? Is their something non-human dwelling in us instead of occupying a throne? Are we possessed by a good spirit of some sort? Just what did Paul mean here? The word spirit means so many things in scripture that this could have a multitude of meanings but which one do you mean here? Is it simply that we should have the mindset of God or at least a mindset derived from scripture that came from God. The word spirit applies in such ways you know and this was demonstrated in my document.

In the case of 1Cor 3:16 I found that Paul was talking about our work, our ministry like this: 13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. 14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? Work like this is what Paul is calling the Spirit of God. Our work should reflect that and we be rewarded for good work that stands this test of fire. That is what such discussions here tend to do.

In the case of 1Cor 6.19 I found that Paul was talking about our morality and that we should be together as moral disciples in Christ like this: 17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. 18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. 19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s. The word Spirit used in this way deals with our holyness or lack of it as Paul discussed here. Using the word in this way for all disciples good or bad was an effort to correct them. We are all joined together as one Spirit like it or not and such lack of morality is sinful in the faith. Perhaps our JW training causes some to think that only one Christian religion is right or has the truth and they rally around it or their denomination. I see it more like all Christian religions good or bad represent the faith and the bad things done in them are sinful and not in keeping with being joined to the Lord. Our Lord will sort all this out when he returns but for now we are responsible as individuals as we are not our own seeing how Christ bought us with a price and collectively we are understood to be the body of Christ.

Joseph

124

Lets Debate the Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come on everyone, let us reason on the trinity doctrine using the bible!.

you know there has to be at least 3 big long trinity threads on here per month... so i figured i'd go ahead and start one for november.. the bible says that there is only one true god who is god by nature, the only god who deserves our worship and prayer.

jesus taught that his father is god.

JosephMalik

Jonathan dough,

Is it scriptural, that is what everyone wants to know? How were words like God used in the texts back then? We are the disciples of our day and responsible for what we teach others. Even in the first century not everything that was taught was correct and the Apostles had to correct them, a process that took years. We see this in Acts and nearly all of Paul's letters as well as Peter's and John's writings. So what people did after they died cannot be trusted more than what such Apostles and disciples already made known to us. That is why I studied the matter for myself. I posted this at: http://home.earthlink.net/~jmalik/beytrin.htm and while it is not a complete work it resolved many of the difficulties that I and others have found with such thinking. It also discusses many of the things that you have brought out here. Everyone should still do their own work but at least here they get an alternate view.

Joseph

124

Lets Debate the Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come on everyone, let us reason on the trinity doctrine using the bible!.

you know there has to be at least 3 big long trinity threads on here per month... so i figured i'd go ahead and start one for november.. the bible says that there is only one true god who is god by nature, the only god who deserves our worship and prayer.

jesus taught that his father is god.

JosephMalik

Undisfeffowshipped,

We know that Jesus is God, our God in fact. Jews used the word God for their Kings and they understood such use. It was an argument for some as they did not all seem to understand it but our lord could refer to such use in his defense. We find Kings of Israel referred to as God at: Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. And now this verse this position of Davids throne as they called it would be filled by our lord when he returns and is now applied to him prophetically. We all know that this kingdom and the God that will be running it is what we are looking forward to. Words and their use in times past and their use now have muddled all this for us. When we discuss the Supreme Being and use the word God to express Him we are using the word another way. After all it has many such uses as Strong's will show. We can see this use only in the context of the verse and our knowledge of prior use in times past but today it eludes many. Not so much for Jews since they did not teach a trinity. They had their feet planted in the text and the Law and did not think like many do today. Our Lord did not command that we suddenly change our grasp of this word God and expand on it during our ministry to include a trinity. In fact he brought out its proper use. Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Men called Gods by God and they were supposed to understand this use which Jesus explained to them now. At least we should know that the Supreme Being does not inherit the throne of David and is unreachable by us without this King in Hebrews between us and God.

As to this being a salvation issue? That is a guess at this point but I doubt that it is the salvation issue many think. It is a serious matter just as keeping the Law was serious for Jewish Christians, but being thrown out of the Faith and labeled as an evil slave is not as final as some think. Being viewed as someone of the Nations as a consequence who also have a hope in Christ though not in our Lord's administration means that there is still hope for them and us. If we are wrong then that is where we end up. Despite our doctrinal views we should all be decent human beings at least and qualify as sheep when our lord returns. Not so much for JW's however since they treat their disfellowshipped brothers cruelly and this is what the goats that are destroyed are separated out from the Nations for doing.

Joseph

124

Lets Debate the Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come on everyone, let us reason on the trinity doctrine using the bible!.

you know there has to be at least 3 big long trinity threads on here per month... so i figured i'd go ahead and start one for november.. the bible says that there is only one true god who is god by nature, the only god who deserves our worship and prayer.

jesus taught that his father is god.

JosephMalik

but it is not true that John Owen (or Carl Trueman) rejects the teaching of the trinity.

Earnest,

Not this matters to any of us today. What we believe and teach others as disciples is what matters to us. We know from our WT experiences what follow the leader leads to. The time had come to stand on our own two feet and research if we have it.

Joseph

124

Lets Debate the Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come on everyone, let us reason on the trinity doctrine using the bible!.

you know there has to be at least 3 big long trinity threads on here per month... so i figured i'd go ahead and start one for november.. the bible says that there is only one true god who is god by nature, the only god who deserves our worship and prayer.

jesus taught that his father is god.

JosephMalik

Come on everyone, let us reason on the Trinity Doctrine using the Bible!

Undisfellowshipped,

I did this some time ago and put some thoughts together here:

http://home.earthlink.net/~jmalik/beytrin.htm

Joseph

23

Are we saved by WORKS or by FAITH?

by UnDisfellowshipped in

saved by works or by faith?.

what does the bible teach?

and what do jehovah's witnesses teach?

JosephMalik

you do those works for their own sake, not because someone imposes them on you.

dgp,

That is almost what I was trying to say but there is one exception. The commandments of Christ were imposed upon us and we do what is expected of such a disciple. Otherwise we are just pretending as I stated earlier.

Joseph

23

Are we saved by WORKS or by FAITH?

by UnDisfellowshipped in

saved by works or by faith?.

what does the bible teach?

and what do jehovah's witnesses teach?

JosephMalik

It's not works.

dgp,

That is not the point. I did not say that faith saves you nor did James. He said faith without works is dead. Maybe it can be understood if we grasp that many who claim to have faith use it like Catholics use a religious relic. They feel protected by such claims but otherwise do as they please and ignore the commandments of Christ.

Joseph

23

Are we saved by WORKS or by FAITH?

by UnDisfellowshipped in

saved by works or by faith?.

what does the bible teach?

and what do jehovah's witnesses teach?

JosephMalik

Works play no role in salvation, except that they result from faith and grace.

WTWizard,

So they do play a role as you admit and we can see them. It is just that such works are not works of Law. This is what James now meant as well. He used a word they knew very well and now used it another way: Jas 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead. This faith did not include the Law anymore. Now words like Grace do not change this. This is a story with many parts explained separately but intended to be understood collectively and we do not pick and choose which one we prefer. After all we did not write what was written and explained to us.

Joseph

23

Are we saved by WORKS or by FAITH?

by UnDisfellowshipped in

saved by works or by faith?.

what does the bible teach?

and what do jehovah's witnesses teach?

JosephMalik

Works play absolutely no role in us obtaining the free gift of salvation and eternal life.

Undisfellowshipped,

But it did for those to whom Paul wrote such comments. How so? Because to them works was another way to describe their religion, their belief system and up until now they had it for all their lives. Such works was their way to salvation as it was for their ancestors. Works was Paul's shorthand for the Law and such works sometimes called dead works were a way of life to them as were other words for Law like circumcision or Moses. Now such works would not save them we learn. Such believers that were still keeping this Law had to change and Paul was now doing that by his instructions to them. But there were also problems among those not keeping the Law like Gentiles for the most part that had no such bondage. What was that? As you said: "We are saved only by God's grace (undeserved kindness) through faith in Christ as Lord, God, and Savior (because of His sacrifice for our sins)." This was also a problem for many such believers. Why? Because belief in Christ means that we keep His commandments and this this goes far beyond just believing. Our Lord expressed this truth like this: Joh 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And again: Joh 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. Now James who finally came to this conclusion would use works to reflect such statements made by our Lord when he said: Jas 2:17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Or again: Jas 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead. Yes, it takes more than just believing, it takes an effort that James is now calling works. This new use for this word works brought out that such effort was expected of them. This is a natural result of our faith and such thinking is also embedded in the words faith or believe even if we do not realize it and this is also reflected by our Love of Christ

Joseph

60

2 Questions For AGuest : )))

by snowbird in

a definition of god that works for me: the supernatural being(s) conceived as the perfect and omnipotent and omniscient originator(s) and ruler(s) of the universe; the object(s) of worship by those who believe thusly.. *i added the parentheticals because i believe there are two beings that make up the one god.*.

1. do you agree with that definition?.

2. what do you believe was the role of the son before his incarnation, and do you believe he is a creature?.

JosephMalik

But I am not your judge..

Aguest,

Of course not and now the readers can decide which view more correctly explains the text themselves.

Joseph