JosephMalik

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Posts by JosephMalik

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  53

  Jesus Set Precedent for Shunning

  by JosephAlward in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  abandon family to serve god ?

  a contradiction not often discussed relates to the biblical teaching to abandon family in order to serve god.

  matthew claims that jesus told his disciples to "honor your father and mother.

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  JosephMalik

  SixofNine,

  So what? I was speaking about the sum total of all his posts which were pretty good. Speak to him about it. I did not see the need to correct anything he said. It is my choice to make.

  Joseph
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  53

  Jesus Set Precedent for Shunning

  by JosephAlward in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  abandon family to serve god ?

  a contradiction not often discussed relates to the biblical teaching to abandon family in order to serve god.

  matthew claims that jesus told his disciples to "honor your father and mother.

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  JosephMalik

  Fair enough. This shows that Jesus encouraged the son to take the mother into his home, and it satisfies my request. However, you are inadvertently damning Jesus with faint praise. If this verse is all you can offer in defense of my contention that Jesus generally did nothing to promote family togetherness, when compared to what he said and did against it, then Jesus comes out lookly pretty bad. Where are the verses to counter the ones which have Jesus refusing to speak to his mother outside the house, and telling the followers inside that his real mother is found among the women in the house? Where are the verses to counter Jesus' statement that he came to earth NOT to bring peace, but to set mother, father, son, and daughter against one another? Where are the verses which counter the ones which have Jesus stating that his followers must hate their mothers and fathers?

  JosephAlward,

  It was only necessary to show that your conclusions were false. And you had to admit that. No need to make the response lengthy. And Kenneson I noticed did a good job of filling in the details you ask for. You say that: Jesus refused to speak to his mother outside the house? How do you know? Does verse say that? No. It simply states that Jesus was accepting all believers before him as his mother and brothers. The comment provided an opportunity to include them all in His family.

  Matthew 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! :50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

  Where does not say that He refused to see His mother or brothers or did not speak to them. After all they were believers and family as well. You see your comments were deceptive and such a conclusion did not come from scripture. Furthermore every detail of this event is not recorded just as every detail of Jesus life is not recorded. There was plenty of time to see them at that time and no reason to say that He refused.

  Jesus' statement that he came to earth NOT to bring peace, but to set mother, father, son, and daughter against one another?

  This is what happens to a Jewish family when one leaves and embraces Christianity. Kenneson already covered this. There was not even peace in the faith at that time with Jewish Christian against Gentile Christian. What is wrong with telling the truth? Truth does not need to be countered with a verse that refutes it does it? Joseph
• 
  53

  Jesus Set Precedent for Shunning

  by JosephAlward in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  abandon family to serve god ?

  a contradiction not often discussed relates to the biblical teaching to abandon family in order to serve god.

  matthew claims that jesus told his disciples to "honor your father and mother.

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  JosephMalik

  I'm still waiting for a verse which shows Jesus promoting family togetherness, or showing love toward his own family members, or encouraging one of his friends to love his family more. If they don't exist, then . . .

  JosephAlward,

  26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! 27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.
  Joseph
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  29

  The Sins of the Father: Bible Error

  by JosephAlward in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  joe alward .

  the bible contradicts itself in the matter of punishing children for the sins of their fathers.

  in one place is says that it is strictly forbidden, but in another the lord speaks of slaughtering sons for the sins of their forefathers, and in yet another place the lord orders the murder of suckling babes.

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  JosephMalik

  Joseph Alward writes,

  In trying to erase the obvious contradiction found in Genesis concering the creation of the sun, apologists fail to explain how there could have been a "morning" and then an "evening" on the first, second, and third days without a sun.

  Joseph Alward,

  The correct terms for the event you are describing is day and night not evening and morning. What the text actually states about the sun is phrased like this:

  14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

  The work described in Genesis was done during the day (an unknown but very long of time as shown by the seventh day) and the expression evening and morning when little or nothing was done simply rounds out the day completing it. The terms are contextual to the creative days of unknown length not the Sun. There is no problem here whatever.

  Alward said: Mornings begin when the earth's rotation gives the appearance of a rising sun, while the evenings begin when the sun appears to fall below the horizon. None of these events could have happened during the first three "days," because there was no sun until the fourth day.

  This misses the point entirely. The correct order is evening and then morning as explained above. Nothing of significance took place during such evening and morning. The days work was allowed to continue by itself without interruption for a time. That is the point made and that day came to a natural completion.

  Poole (commentary) stated: It is acknowledged by all, that the evening and the morning are not here to be understood according to our common usage, but are put by a synecdoche each of them for one whole part of the natural day. But because it may be doubted which part each of them signifies, some understand by evening, the foregoing day; and by the morning, the foregoing night; and so the natural day begins with the morning or the light, as it did with the ancient Chaldeans.

  This is not the way the scriptures and Jews measured days. They measured them from evening to evening and the use of such words here were in a completely different context.

  Joseph

  Edited by - JosephMalik on 15 October 2002 14:5:55
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  12

  Hourglass2 Outpost Archives 1996-2001

  by Derrick in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  all credit and many thanks go to our dear brother osarsif for making the hourglass2 outpost archives 1996-2001 online internet resource a reality: .

  http://www.geocities.com/osarsif/h2o.htm.

  that's right, all 6 years!

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  JosephMalik

  I thought there was a period of several month's posts that got trashed near the time your host discontinued its service. You mean to say they were finally recovered? I hope so!

  Farkle,

  Not to my knowledge. When H2o discontinued the download packages I struggled trying to save the site but several hard drives later lost most of that. Computers back then were not what they are today. It was not until I got Visual Basic software and finally wrote a program to download the messages in sequential order that whatever was left on the site was finally saved. About that same time Joe Mesko had a system that did much the same thing but was more difficult to use. It cluttered up the board in fact with long columns of message numbers. But we worked together after that and now Rado V has all of it up. I also stripped the messages to remove unnecessary data and compacted them considerably. That same program with a few changes did that in a flash. Too bad I did not get into VB sooner. We could have saved it all. Also conference room B1 was saved if you remember that one. And it all looks just like the old H2o when displayed.

  Something like that should be done for this board. But the messages here are really long if anyone has ever looked at the sources. It would take some doing.

  Joseph

  Edited by - JosephMalik on 14 October 2002 8:8:36
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  29

  The Sins of the Father: Bible Error

  by JosephAlward in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  joe alward .

  the bible contradicts itself in the matter of punishing children for the sins of their fathers.

  in one place is says that it is strictly forbidden, but in another the lord speaks of slaughtering sons for the sins of their forefathers, and in yet another place the lord orders the murder of suckling babes.

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  JosephMalik

  Of course, this insistence causes no end of problems for the apologist, who must explain, for example, how it could be that there were "mornings" (sunrises) and "evenings" (sunsets) on the first three "days" of creation, even though the sun wasn't created until the fourth day.

  3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

  Joseph Alward,

  The expression days is not limited to 24 hours in scripture. They are simply epochs divided in this manner. This was discussed here on JWD just recently. The Sun existed on the first day as shown above. It did not rule the days and nights however until the 4 th day when the trees and grasses cleared up the atmosphere enough for them to be dominant. And the stars began to show through then as well.

  :14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

  15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

  :19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

  This is well within the meaning of the word made or hse asah aw-saw .

  There is no contradiction in the texts here. But if there is please show it clearly.

  Joseph
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  29

  The Sins of the Father: Bible Error

  by JosephAlward in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  joe alward .

  the bible contradicts itself in the matter of punishing children for the sins of their fathers.

  in one place is says that it is strictly forbidden, but in another the lord speaks of slaughtering sons for the sins of their forefathers, and in yet another place the lord orders the murder of suckling babes.

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  JosephMalik

  Or, how it could be that Jesus spent three days and nights (literally) in the tomb, even though he was buried just before sundown on Friday (just before the beginning of sabbath), and was missing from the tomb on the "first day of the week" (Monday). Count the days and nights, and you will see they don't add up to three each.

  JosephAlward,

  This was covered here on JWD in detail some time ago. But if anyone wants to know the answer all they have to do is download Beyond Watchtower Doctrine at: http://localsonly.wilmington.net/jmalik/

  Jesus did spend three days and nights (literally) in the tomb, not complete ones but still three literal days and nights. This is because He was entombed on a Thursday and raised Sunday morning while it was still night in this exact order.

  Joseph
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  24

  Jacob's Branches and Genetics: Bible Error

  by JosephAlward in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  joe alward.

  about a year ago i raised this issue of the bible-writers' apparent belief that the color of one's offspring is determined in part by what you're looking at while you're mating.

  we didn't obtain then what i considered a satisfactory resolution of this problem, so i'm presenting it once again for the forum's consideration:.

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  JosephMalik

  JOE ALWARD ,

  Here we go again. The text states: Genesis 30:37-39

  :37 And Jacob took him rods of green poplar, and of the hazel and chesnut tree; and pilled white strakes in them, and made the white appear which was in the rods.

  Jacob released the white sap in the rods and contaminated their water supply like this:

  :38 And he set the rods which he had pilled before the flocks in the gutters in the watering troughs when the flocks came to drink, that they should conceive when they came to drink.

  This would cause defective coloring and in this case produced ringstraked, speckled and spotted offspring during this critical time of conceptioin which he later used for breeding stock for the rest of his flock.

  :39 And the flocks conceived before the rods, and brought forth cattle ringstraked, speckled, and spotted.

  John Gills expositor states: Austin asserts {t}; and it may be observed, what is affirmed by some writers {u}, that sheep will change their colours according to the different waters they drink of at the time of their being covered; and that some rivers drank of will make white sheep black, and black white, and others red and yellow. But as Jacob was directed of God to take this method, this is sufficient to justify him, and upon his blessing and providence the success depended,

  And Jacob then used the process of selection after that to acquire such spotted sheep for himself.

  There is no need for Jacob to know genetics. All he needed to do was follow the instructions given to him by someone who did. Today women are warned against taking ceartain drugs during pregnacy. Some are banned in fact. Many drugs come from trees and plants. Fancy that.

  Joseph
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  13

  Life-giving Knowledge? Please HELP!

  by bound2fly2002 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  hello,am new at this so bear with me please.

  i need any scriptures that any ex-witnesses can give to refute the idea of "knowledge leads to everlasting life".

  need this asap before next meeting with them at my home.

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  JosephMalik

  John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

  BoundtoFly,

  Use the very verse you are speaking of. The might know in this verse translated as taking in knowledge in the NWT in not something gained by study. It is in the present tense not some future tense as if it is something we gain later through effort. Strongs give meanings such as:

  1097 ginwskw ginosko ghin-oce-ko

  a prolonged form of a primary verb; TDNT-1:689,119; v

  AV-know 196, perceive 9, understand 8, misc 10; 223

  1) to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel

  1a) to become known

  2) to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of

  2a) to understand

  2b) to know

  3) Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman

  4) to become acquainted with, to know

  In other words it means you know God you understand God and His will and God knows you. And you know Jesus Christ just as well as you know God, you already have this knowledge.

  The truth sets us free from this kind of indoctrination. And if you know God then you know that the doctrine of the Watchtower does not come from Him. Therefore you can say to them.

  Which one of the many books that they have printed can they hold up and say; This is the truth, there are no mistaken doctrines or biblical principles taught in it?

  Hopefully they will answer none.

  How many of your many books can the hold up and say; This is as close to the truth that we can come but there are many mistaken docrines in it

  Hopefully they will answer all of them.

  And even beyond doctrines, their practices and principles keep changing. How many such doctrines and practices are wrong at this very moment?

  If they say none they are lying. They do not consider child abuse a legal matter to be reported to authorities first as in Romans chapter 13. Instead they try to keep them internal and hidden.

  Questions such as this get to the point rather quickly. But if you try to correct such error in their thinking they will be gone, brand you as an evil person or tell some other lie to make you look bad. So it is your call. Handle it the best way you can. Joseph
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  31

  An Eye for an Eye: Bible Error

  by JosephAlward in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  many months ago i offered the "eye for an eye" conflict as evidence that the bible cannot be trusted to provide non-contradictory moral guidance.

  since that time many new people have joined this forum, so i present this bible "difficulty" once again:.

  scripture teaches that one should destroy one's enemies, and take an eye for an eye: "show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

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  JosephMalik

  gumby,

  Makes no difference. The Grace I was talking about applies to everyone not just believers. No decent human being will lose their life. They will gain immortality instead. Just because the Watchtower view of the end is screwed up is no reason to be bitter against God.

  Joseph