Posts by JosephMalik

27

Was Adam created immortal?

by Mr Bean in

22 and the lord god said, behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:.

23 therefore the lord god sent him forth from the garden of eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.. 24 so he drove out the man: and he placed at the east of the garden of eden cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.. .

if he would eat from that tree, he would have live forever.

JosephMalik

1. Why do according to the Bible Jesus Christ is the only being, apart from Jehovah who has immortality ?

Ginosko,

The only human being is the correct thought. Christ is the human term for the Word our creator. That the Word was immortal before becoming flesh is simply understood. We can say the same thing for angels (non-humans). But after becoming human and mortal Jesus alone gained immortality for us. This is the immortality that He will pass on to all restored to life or changed. No one can simply walk into the kingdom as the Watchtower teaches and continue to live in it. This is another Watchtower lie and a big one at that for which they have no verse. Everyone must die or be changed.

2. Why angels aren't qualified to obtain immortality ?

Who says they are not already immortal? After all the ones that sinned had to be controlled (not the ones that did not sin) then will have to be deliberately executed after the 1000 years ends. So again this is a Watchtower teaching that finds no scriptural support. Does a biblical author have to write down the angels are immortal for us to have proof when we know they have been around for thousands of years and longer? Silly stuff really. The word Immortal only appears about six times in the text anyway? Mostly for our benefit under the New Covenant because this is what Christ won for us all.

3. So many eons and sacrifices had to pass so the Word of John 1:1 qualifies immortality and that it seems so easy for Adam to obtain immortality eating only from a figurative tree in the garden?

This is the reason why Watchtower witnesses will never understand scripture. Their doctrine is so twisted it will never lead them to the truth. Yet they have gotten away with their lies for a long time.

Joseph

27

Was Adam created immortal?

by Mr Bean in

22 and the lord god said, behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:.

23 therefore the lord god sent him forth from the garden of eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.. 24 so he drove out the man: and he placed at the east of the garden of eden cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.. .

if he would eat from that tree, he would have live forever.

JosephMalik

There is a difference, in the Bible, as to life everlasting and immortality.

Immortality means life within oneself. It means that you won't, cannot die. Life everlasting still must be sustained. So, those who live forever fall into 2 different classes.

SimpleSally,

This is just another Watchtower lie. No scripture to back it up either is there? They get away with a lot with statements like this. There is also no basis for teaching that an immortal person (human or otherwise) cannot die. Anyone or anything can be killed by God. This is just another lie that conceals from our view the truth of scripture. There will be two classes (if we insist on calling them that) in the resurrection (righteous and unrighteous). The ones already justified (saved) and the ones that must pass the final test. Immortality is not a factor in the kingdom as anyone that qualifies to enter will be immortal.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Adam was not created immortal. He was simply perfect (without sin) and qualified as a Son of God. To gain immortality Adam would have had to eat from the tree of life. This (apparently) symbolic tree would have been made available to him after a suitable time passed. Adam however failed to qualify for such life.

Jesus on the other hand did qualify and was transfigured. A literal tree is therefore not required for such a metamorphos and human beings will be raised immortal even as our Lord was.

3339 metamorphoo
AV-transfigure 2, transform 1, change 1; 4

1) to change into another form, to transform, to transfigure
1a) Christ appearance was changed and was resplendent with
divine brightness on the mount of transfiguration

Matthew 17:2 And was transfigured <3339> before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

This event contained a vision true, but it also involved a metamorphos or change along with this vision in which our Lord was transformed. There is a simple rule in scripture to describe this. Like for like, kind for kind. Thus an immortal resurrection for all mankind became possible because an immortal life was sacrificed in our behalf. A mortal life would not qualify as it would not be a like kind. And since we know that our Lord was the only human being to gain such immortality, we know what our Lord regained that Adam lost for us so long ago.

1 Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

2 Timothy 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Joseph

39

How to help a JW using 607, 1914 stuff.

by apocalypse in

the following information was prepared for the benefit of those who are endeavoring to assist a close friend or relative who is a jehovahs witness.

it is intended to aid a person who wishes to, in a non-confrontational manner, approach the vital foundational issue with respect to the primary doctrine of jehovahs witnesses.

it can be done without the recipient of the information even becoming aware of your intentions.

JosephMalik

It is much easier that all this.

For one thing 607 and 1914 mean nothing. Why? Because Christ has not yet returned or come. How do we know? Because the scriptures clearly teach that when He does come back here to rule it will be as a human being, in the flesh, fully visible to all and not invisible as the Watchtower teaches. Did not the men in white robes teach this to the apostles and disciples present? Yes for they said.

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

There is no such thing as a 2520 year prophecy dependent on 607 that will somehow tell us when our Lord will inspect the flock. It is simply a lie, a mis-application of a prophecy already fulfilled in Daniels day, a prophecy that established him as a true prophet, a prophecy that does not have another fulfillment. Our Lord made it very plain that:

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Matthew 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

So our Lord does not know, we do not know, the Watchtower does not know. Anyone that says they do know is lying. And if they also say that they alone were appointed to guide the faith. Well that is just another lie. Can they raise the dead, cure the sick, display any miraculouse gifts? No! Is their material full of error? Yes and always changing. Can they hold up any book printed and say, this is the truth, there are not mistakes in it? No! So how can they claim to be appointed by our Lord? By lying about it. It is that simple.

Joseph

Edited by - JosephMalik on 26 December 2002 0:14:35

5

Are the F&D Slave and the Evil Slave the same?

by eyeslice in

i had a look at a thread started by veniceit yesterday, then followed a link to her story, and from something she wrote there, i have been re-reading matthew 24:45-50.. .

the society has really taught that there are in effect two separate "slave" classes; the faithful and discreet slave "class" and the evil "slave" class.

they teach that the "evil slave" originates from the single "faithful slave" by becoming apostate.. .

JosephMalik

However, if I simply read this passage with no preconceived ideas, I get the impression that Jesus is only talking about a single slave, who apparently has two courses of action he can choose, which in turn leads to two differing sets of consequences.

Eyeslice,

This is correct. And the decision is made when our Lord returns so we cannot determine how any disciple (slave) will turn out. One can always turn around sometime before they die. But we can make a pretty good guess based upon their conduct, doctrine, attitudes etc. What we do as individuals matters. How we treat others and what we teach them matters. Everyone will be judged as individuals according to their deeds and not on the performance of some group they associate with. So if we teach and treat others badly, lie to them about blood transfusions causing them their death or encourege them to not take the bread and wine, abuse them by not speaking to them and tell or encourage others to do the same we personally will suffer the consequences for such acts.

Romans 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

It is not much different for the Nations that are without Fatith and never were disciples that still may qualify for entry as human beings. But for believers this loss is significant as their attitude and failure will cost them the first resurrection. There is a simple rule we should understand when we decide to dedicate our lives to Jesus and become disciples of His. Even a few stripes are too many for followers even if we do make it into the kingdom as evil slaves, and drunkards after being thrown out of the Faith.

Luke 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Joseph

3

Greg Stafford and the WTS harrasment on holidays

by jwsons in

gregg stafford posted on december 21, 2002 :.

http://www.channelc.org/cgi-bin/eboard30/index2.cgi?frames=yes&board=main&mode=current&message=4772.

jwsons

JosephMalik

jwsons,

I took apart chapter 8 of Staffords first book and posted it on my web site. Never heard a word about it, no rebuttal nothing. The article called Identifying the Antichrist is still on my page and documents. Makes one wonder why he cares so much about Birthdays and Holidays when far more important material is in the fire?

Joseph

19

Old Testament Faithful in Heaven?

by artful in

the wts doctrine that the faithful men and women of old would have no place in heaven in god's kingdom has never really sat right with me.

i did some scriptural research on it and thought i would share it .

any comments would be appreciated.

JosephMalik

I don't really believe that the terms "heaven" and "God" can be used interchangeably.

Artful,

Joseph answers: Not always, but the fact that they are used that way requires proof on your part that is more specific than what you offer. Context determines what is meant and context is an elusive element not easily grasped. So just because words like Spirit or Heaven appear in texts which words have many applications means that you have no real proof for your view. In this regard root texts and teachings, the hope for mankind and mans redemption carry more weight than such words. The need for a sacrifice by a human Being permits a repurchase of Adams offspring and does not allow for such thinking. This is the root teaching of scripture and demonstrated by the resurrection and restoration to life of human beings only. The only seed planted here on earth that qualifies for life other than human life was the Word that was with God and our creator. Yet this Word after being raised by God raised his own human body as prophesied and retained His humanity which was an immortal human body at that time. The only human being in fact to gain such immortality since Adam did not. If life was intended for us in the kingdom and if we are to have a body like His then this immortal human body shown to the Faith is it, not some non-human nature man never possessed and could never gain on his own. This is what was intended for us even as the Jews believed. Martha in fact described such a human resurrection and the hope of the Jews at the last day and not a non-human change in nature.

Artful said: I agree with your reasoning that being born again of spirit does not necessarily indicate that we would become spirit creatures in the future. I do think that being born of spirit although not altering our nature as humans, does alter our perspective from material to spiritual. This idea of altering our perspective is one that both Jesus and Paul preached (as quoted in my original scriptures above).

Joseph answers: Here again words like material and spiritual perspective are misleading. The spiritual perspective of the Jews in our Lords day was the Law and scripture even as Redemption, justification and resurrection is the spiritual perspective we support under the New Covenant. Our nature or a change to a non-human nature is not a factor in such texts.

Artful said: Unfortunately, this is where you stopped your explanations. I would suggest that the scriptures in Revelation that refer to the 144K and great crowd being present in heaven (with God, Jesus and the angels), and the others that I cited pertaining to Paul are the scriptures that present more of a challenge to your ideas (see below):

Joseph answers: Visions and signs are of no value in a discussion where doctrine on this matter has already been established for thousands of years. Such visions do not alter such facts but simply illustrate them for us. They are not any more literal than the trees growing in this heaven or the city itself are literal.

Artful said: 2 Corinthians 5:1 Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven ,not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling,
- Paul says that a Christian's house comes from God (as you have indicated), but then in a separate statement, he points to its location in heaven.

Joseph answers: The house under discussion in this text is the human body. This body of flesh, mortal, corruptible will be replaced with an immortal human body by Christ. One just like His. We have this assurance confirmed by the resurrection of our Lords human body to life once again. This is a prophecy pointing to where Christ was at that time Paul wrote sitting at Gods right hand not where Christ will be when it is fulfilled. It does not say that our nature will be altered does it? No but simply that our new house will be God given, authorize by Him by virtue of the sacrifice that was offered which now permits it. It will not be the product of Adam. It will be the product of Christ, something quite different not made with hands in that it will include the immortality that Christ gained for us.

Artful said: The scripture that you cite in Acts 1:11 does indicate that the Lord's return would be in the same manner as his ascension, but does it say that he would then remain on Earth and rule over his subjects from Earth? No! Jesus indicated at Revelation 3:21 "To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne" to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.

Joseph answers: Literal discussions by our Lord are proof and if you have such proof please offer it. Even after His resurrection and spending forty days teaching His disciples about the Kingdom of God they NEVER got the idea that it would be somewhere else did they?

3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: . . . 6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

No, the only thing that they did not grasp was the fact that it would be well into the future. Our Lord did not correct their view of an earthly kingdom, only the time the day and hour in which it would take place. So no one will go to a place called heaven to be transformed into a non-human creature. This is literal information not symbolic views of this kingdom. The new creation that will inhabit it is immortal but human. This is what Adam lost for us when he failed to eat from the tree of life and this is what our Lord regained for us at His transfiguration. This is what was promised to mankinds seed and this is the only way anyone can become part of this kingdom. There is no entry into it other than being resurrected or changed (transfigured) and this goes for everyone that gains such entry be they believers or not.

Of course Christ will remain here on earth. He will sit on Davids throne an earthly throne and eat the Passover once again with His disciples. Literal information is not altered by symbolic texts and using them proves nothing. This is what our Lord taught His disciples about this kingdom.

29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; 30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Matthew 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Fathers kingdom.

This was also the hope of the Jews to which Martha and our Lords disciples so aptly testified.

Joseph

Edited by - JosephMalik on 24 December 2002 8:21:58

19

Old Testament Faithful in Heaven?

by artful in

the wts doctrine that the faithful men and women of old would have no place in heaven in god's kingdom has never really sat right with me.

i did some scriptural research on it and thought i would share it .

any comments would be appreciated.

JosephMalik

However, when considered in combination with Hebrews which refers to a heavenly city prepared for them, it would seem to make sense that the OT men could have a heavenly hope.

Artful,

On the contrary. Since by your own admission the term Heavenly was an alternate expression for God, then a heavenly city to the Hebrews would be an alternate way of saying a Godly city prepared for them. A change from the ungodly city they knew in their day ruled by the Romans.

Artful said: You mention that the only one qualified to go to heaven was Jesus as he was from there and since we are human (born of flesh) we do not qualify. I would agree with this reasoning. However, reading the entire chapter of John 3 in context, wasn't the whole purpose of Jesus' discussion with Nicodemus to demonstrate that (as you say) no one born of flesh (man) can enter the Kingdom of God, so therefore we must be born again of Spirit to do so...

John 3: 3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." 4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!" 5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Where does being born again or being born of the Spirit indicate that we become non-human creatures at some time in the future? Nicodemus was expected to be born again as were all followers of our Lord while still here on earth as a human before they died. He would have to give up the Law and its requirements and embrace a new Faith radically different in Christ as if he were a completely different person (in Spirit) or born again. Look at Paul. He was born again and lived a life far removed from what he was prior to such conversion. Being born again should never be interpreted in a way that alters our very nature from human to something else. Human nature and the seed we plant is not altered when one is born again.

Artful said: Applying this same line of reasoning that flesh (man) cannot enter the Kingdom but that which is born of spirit can; the scripture at 1 Timothy could simply be taken to mean that no man (flesh) could approach God.

The approach to God under the Law Covenant was through the priesthood. The approach to God under the New Covenant is: 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Spirit is not an issue in such an approach to God. The Man (not some non-human) Christ Jesus mediates for all men as not everyone that enters this kingdom will be good or even righteous. What they are as human beings will determine that not their belief systems.

Artful said: Matt 6:19,20 "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.

What we are as human beings will determine our future life. This is something that cannot be stolen from us or consumed by time. The verse does not say that we will go to such a place does it? After all the hope for all mankind is resurrection from the dead as immortal human beings not a change of natures to nonhuman creatures.

Matthew 22:30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

And what are angels like? Immortal, undying? Yes, they would be that, but they neither marry nor are given in marriage. So the verse is self explanatory. The verse does not say that we will also share that nature of angels does it? No, it simply teaches that we will enjoy such characteristics described.

Luke 6:23 "Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven.

Does it say we go there? No! But it does teach that our reward will come from that place where Christ now resides. But Luke also wrote concerning such a reward:

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

And the verses go on an on like this. If you want me to continue please show from such texts that heaven is a place to which we will go as non-human beings and not just where our hopes and dreams are stored awaiting the immortal human body that will be given them when our Lord returns. And what will we be doing there alone when our Lord promised to return here to rule? Only then we will have something to discuss. After all we do know this about such a place:

1 Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Joseph

19

Old Testament Faithful in Heaven?

by artful in

the wts doctrine that the faithful men and women of old would have no place in heaven in god's kingdom has never really sat right with me.

i did some scriptural research on it and thought i would share it .

any comments would be appreciated.

JosephMalik

Artful,

All you have shown is that the expression "kingdom of heaven" is the same as the expression "kingdom of God." These are Hebrew and Greek ways for expressing this coming kingdom. Such prophetic parables do not locate man in some far away place. In fact no one will go to heaven as this "kingdom of God" will be right here on earth and our Lord will return as promised in human form to administer it. The only person that qualified to go to such a place was our Lord since He was from there and His seed qualified. Our seed does not as it is fully human. To demonstrate Paul and our Lord both taught.

1 Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Watchtower doctrine that only 144,000 will go to heaven is a lie. This symbolic representation for the disciples of Christ that will preside over the world of mankind as Priests in this kingdom will all take place here on earth where our Lord will also be when He comes or arrives.

Joseph

32

Women ministers

by Pleasuredome in

i recommend to you phoe'be our sister, who is a minister of the congregation that is in cen'chreae.

romans 16:1 .

i thought it was only men who are ministers?

JosephMalik

Joseph Alward : Paul's comments immediately preceding, and after, his comment about women being silent put his teaching in perfect perspective--one which is totally opposite to the one you see.

Your interpretation of Pauls comments in Verses 34 and 35 is impossibly incompatible with the verses preceding, and following. Before I comment further, here are the relevant verses (I have underlined key words):

JosephAlward,

Just where do you get the idea that these are Pauls comments? The Corinthians wrote Paul a letter and he was responding to it point by point. My comments were compatible with the way Paul wrote and the better part of 1 Corinthians is spent responding to their letter to him. It reads very much like a thread here on this board. For example: Paul corrected them regarding the confusion they were causing when speaking in tounges which he gleaned from their letter (vs26) and said:

31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. {confusion: Gr. tumult, or, unquietness}

In saying: By ye may all prophesy . . . that all may learn, Paul included women. He said this because of the view the Corinthians had on this matter where they said to him in their letter.

The Corintihans wrote to Paul:

34 As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church...everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way. (1 Corinthians 14:33-40)

And Pauls response to it is: 36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? Paul put them in their place. He slapped down such thinking in no uncertain words. No confusion, no mis-application, no impossibly incompatible comments here. And we get this kind of back and forth discussion in Pauls letter from chapter 7 all the way to its end. This is the context in which this letter should be understood. Robinsons Word Pictures states:

{Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote} (peri de wn egraqate). An ellipsis of peri toutwn, the antecedent of peri wn, is easily supplied as in papyri. The church had written Paul a letter in which a number of specific problems about marriage were raised. He answers them _seriatim_. The questions must be clearly before one in order intelligently to interpret Pauls replies.

This is the problem many have, and this is why many have so much difficulty understanding Pauls work. Something Peter noticed and commented on as well. Joseph

32

Women ministers

by Pleasuredome in

i recommend to you phoe'be our sister, who is a minister of the congregation that is in cen'chreae.

romans 16:1 .

i thought it was only men who are ministers?

JosephMalik

If that is what youre claiming, Joseph, then I must point out that nowhere does Paul give the slightest hint to his audience that this was not a view he held himself, and nowhere does Paul give any clue that he was talking about the kind of teaching his audience should regard as false.

JosephAlward,

Sure he does but you will simply not accept it. All this was already covered in Women Equal In the Faith and there is no need to repeat it. Not just false but Timothy should not appoint them to the office of Bishop and give them authority over others. It is that simple. This verse does not stand alone. Paul did much the same thing in nearly all his letters as he did in 1 Cor. that you reference since this problem existed anywhere Christian Jews that followed James lived. If you simply would take the time to read the very next verse you would see Paul's wrath raise in this letter when he said: 36 What? And then he rebukes them in no uncertain terms by saying to them: came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? That put them and this teaching in its place. 37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

For some there was no hope and they would remain ignorant. But the ones that would listen would acknowledge such error and adhere once again to the commandments of the Lord which Paul wrote unto them that did not prevent women from teaching others just as the women at the well was encouraged to do.

Joseph