an elder met with my husband a few nights ago.
i was working but my hubby recorded the whole thing.
one thing that is totally stuck in my brain is talk about the "new light" and how things get brighter and can be clarified easier.
Like, did the organization make rules and then get reprimanded by god or Jesus?
Homeschool,
Jesus had to step in to appoint Paul, which was a correction. And you know about the unclean things that Peter experienced which changed his mind about the Gentiles coming in. That is how it was done at the time. The Apostles did take a firmer stance when it came to reprimand as you put it and we see that in the texts as well. But nothing like the kind of false teachings we have today.
Joseph
an elder met with my husband a few nights ago.
i was working but my hubby recorded the whole thing.
one thing that is totally stuck in my brain is talk about the "new light" and how things get brighter and can be clarified easier.
What does NT mean? I guess I was wondering: could jw's use that as a reasoning as to why its okay to flip flop & make mistakes? ...because true Christians of the bible did also?
Homeschool,
NT means New Testament or the Christian Greek scriptures if you prefer. The changes that took place in them are enormous. The point being made by such error (which many fail to see) and is documented in them is the harm that was done to the Faith at the time and why this is not acceptable. This also shows us how to deal with such error and not be wishy washy about standing up for truth. After all we are disciples of Christ not men or organizations. We now are supposed to have that behind us and not still in front of us. But this is not the case yet. We are therefor given warnings to look out for such deceivers. Tit 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: These texts teach us why such an evil servant (slave) that is doing such things will be cast out when our Lord returns.
Oompa said: there is not a single instance in the bible where god allows FALSE teachings to be taught as true....only to reveal the real truth later.....not one....would would be the point?
The world is full of false teachings that are being taught as true and this information was given to prepare us for it. The point is: this is why the responsibility rest upon us as individuals and not the teachings of others. Mt 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. We cannot complain and say "the Watchtower made me teach it or do it." This did not work for Adam and will not work for us in the Judgment. It works out like this: Ga 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Joseph
an elder met with my husband a few nights ago.
i was working but my hubby recorded the whole thing.
one thing that is totally stuck in my brain is talk about the "new light" and how things get brighter and can be clarified easier.
Did "true christians" of bible times make big mistakes that were corrected?
Homeschool,
Yes! Not just true Christians like James but the Apostles like Peter and John. Any doctrinal errors revealed in scripture that they made? Yes, like keeping the Law for salvation which they were doing. Paul corrected Peter over this and tried to correct James, John and the thousands of Jews in Jerusalem and elsewhere, a process that took Paul most of His remaining years. And Our Lord had to step in and correct the Apostles appointment of Matthias when He appointed Paul as His Apostle instead. They had the power to do many things but not to make an Apostle for someone else the way they did. We thus now know that only a personal laying on of hands or revelation is required for such an important appointment. Can we see any of this for ourselves? Yes but only if we start reading the scriptures for ourselves and put down the misleading literature that keeps distracting us from what is written and meant. Listen to the NT being read and what pops out plain as day? They are all about Jesus and His sacrifice everywhere and in all the gospels and letters and not about Jehovah where the WT puts its emphasis. That will come later. Now is very much of WT doctrine effected by any of this? Yes, most of it is so flawed that it is not redeemable just like the many books and magazines that they have printed over the years that wasted tons of wood pulp and resources. You can no longer teach the truth from them can you? In fact you can not teach the truth from their current literature but you just do not know it yet.
Joseph
It way OK. We all have different ways to explain or emphasize things we teach. The conclusion reached was correct. The word Heaven or when words like Heaven or God are used in regard to this Kingdom are not teaching us that it will be located someplace else unknown to us. It is simply a Jewish way to say Kingdom of God or a Kingdom that is authorized by God to exist here on earth at an appointed time. The Apostles knew that it would be here on earth and after all their training and our Lord's further instructions after His resurrection expected it and asked: Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? Were they wrong to think this? No! But now they would simply learn that the timing of this would still be well into the future while the place involving where it would be was correct and our Lord would return here to administer it. Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. Now words like sheep are not specific. We can apply words like other sheep to Christ's loyal followers be they Jewish or Gentile believers. This is fine. And we can apply the word Sheep to the Nations of the world both living and dead that are also found worthy of life in this kingdom of God as Matthew chapter 25 teaches. This is why in Revelation chapter 20 John saw such Nations existing together with the holy ones in this Kingdom. As for two different groups of Christians, do we find them involved somehow? No, for our Lord will throw out any evil slaves found among such believers to be with the Nations at His coming before any get to enter into this Kingdom. They (such evil slaves) exist now of course, but will not exist as believers or holy ones then in this Kingdom at least not until after the final test.
Joseph
jesus was put to death on the tree and was resurrected after three days into a spirit body according to the bible.. but it appears that this is really jesus' second resurrection!
jesus had a pre-human existence in a spiritual body.. something that defined jesus was transferrred from this spiritual body to an earthly body.. the question is now, what happened to jesus' prehuman body?
it could not be functioning because then there would a spiritual jesus and an earthly jesus existing at the same time.
VM44 you said: But it appears that this is really Jesus' SECOND resurrection! Why so? Jesus had a pre-human existence in a spiritual body. Something that defined Jesus was transferred from this spiritual body to an earthly body.
Words like appears are really guesses devoid of any real evidence. And to say that this is really Jesus Second resurrection would indicate that you know what such a non-human life really is and under what circumstances it can be put to death Do you? Does it require and is it dependent on intelligence or is it simply someone non-human that can exist independent of such intelligence with God providing this intelligence as needed? I have no idea myself other that what I read in scripture. And there it says: John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. It was this life that caused the dust of the ground to become a human being. How? I have no idea but it happened. And this life remained without sin in this non-human giver of life in spite of Adams later and sinful abuse of it, causing all future human life to be condemned as sinful. Now the scriptures do not call the change in nature of this life from non-human to human a death that requires a resurrection. They call it a change in glory which in our Lord’s case could be reclaimed as the reward for the faithful mission he performed. It was both permitted: Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. And even requested again in a prayer just before His arrest and execution like this: John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. So the non-human life that our Lord requested was restored once again and as our creator in the beginning He could now resurrect the human life that was executed as promised since it would be required to fulfill the remaining of God’s requirements in the Kingdom. Thus the one authorized by God to give human life to the dust of the ground now acquired both the glory of his non-human nature along with the glory of his human nature (something I call his hypostasis nature if taken generically) which would allow Him to guide humanity all the way through history and the period of the millennium.
Joseph
for any who think that the jw's are correct in teaching that the bible forbids transfusion medicine;.
for any who have doubts about the teaching but are still unsure if the jw's are right or not;.
for any who suspect that the jw's are probably wrong, but still think there might be some tiny kernal of truth at the heart of the teaching;.
TD,
This is all based upon some supposed doctrinal letter written by the Jerusalem congregations which said:
Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. 30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle: 31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.
So who was the Holy Ghost depicted here? The congregation in Antioch which appointed Paul and his delegation who both decided the matter beforehand and sent Paul's congregation to Jerusalem to correct this error at its source. Acts 13:1 Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. 2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. 3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. And the us in verse 28 was James and the congregation in Jerusalem.
This letter was taken as a peaceful settlement by Paul and not a doctrinal statement. Keeping the Law was not a requirement for salvation. It was now detrimental in fact. And unknown by Paul it did not settle the matter for all Christians in the Faith. How do we know? Because Paul continued to have a problem with Jews everywhere in his territories and had to return some 14 years later only to find out this:
Acts 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: 21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. 22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. 23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; 24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. 25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
So what did Paul now learn? That the Christian Jews in Jerusalem like James were still keeping the Law and expected Paul as a Jew to keep it as well. Their letter was written only to Gentile Christians and exempted them from most of the Law with a few exceptions like this. And they were more Talmudic then legal rules. Paul was now in a fight for his life from his own Jewish brothers. And they almost succeeded in carrying out their threats from which Paul was saved by the Roman Army. He believed the matter settled years ago for both groups and now had to gain time to influence them without the support he had years earlier. If the letter was binding upon us then why is not the statement "Do therefore this that we say to thee:" also as binding as their letter? Why do JW's not save their heads and take the vows today? This was after all demanded by their so called Governing Body? Who was wrong all along for these many years, James and the congregation he influenced or Paul? Who needed the correction that finally came with the book of Hebrews? The Jewish congregation in Jerusalem or the Gentile congregations scattered about the world? You decide who to believe, it is your life, your ministry, your everlasting life as well as your present life and that of your loved ones that hangs in the balance.
Joseph
myabe the gb knew the right answer sooner than twenty years, but it was not until 20 years did they correct it.. how many other things have been figured out that they are silent about?.
maybe reniaa will read this!.
in the 1951 watchtower(w51 12/15 p. 763), a witness wrote in and asked: how can.
So, what other things have they gotten wrong?
The Torture Stake?
Abstaining from blood?
Two witness rule?
I am sure there are more.
Purplesofa,
More? Yes, much more and on important things critical to our salvation like:
Where the Kingdom will be and how it will be administered.
Every disciple should partake of the Emblems as this was a major teaching of Christ.
Our Lord did not die on Nisan 14 and they do not understand the Passover.
Women are Equal in the Faith and Paul defended them against the Jews who taught otherwise.
The Christian Jews in Jerusalem like James were keeping the Law and Paul was opposing them for years.
They would be considered Apostates by WT standards today and their Letter had no doctrinal value.
The Gentile times were not 2520 years long but much longer than that.
Christ did raise his own body from the tomb and used to to teach his disciples for 40 some days.
And Oh yes, Paul was the 12th Apostle as such an appointment of Apostle could only be made personally and not by vote.
And much more.
Joseph
christ was crucified on what is known today as wednesday on the roman calendar - and was resurrected three days and three nights later, exactly as he said that he would.. it is also very important to keep in mind that god's biblical calendar days begin and end at sunset, hence the reason that, for example, in the biblical listing below, nisan 14 is equated with sunset tuesday to sunset wednesday (as it occurred that year, and has occasionally done in some years ever since).. sunset monday to sunset tuesday (nisan 13).
preparation of the room where christ would observe passover with the apostles, tuesday afternoon.. matthew 26:18-19, mark 14:13-16, luke 22:9-13. sunset tuesday to sunset wednesday (nisan 14).
christ observed his passover (also known as "the last supper") with the apostles, tuesday evening just after sunset.. matthew 26:20-29, mark 14:17-25, luke 22:14-38, john chapters 13-17. sermon: how to observe passoverat about 10 p.m. tuesday evening, they went out and entered the garden of gethsemane where the messiah prayed and was then arrested by the mob.. matthew 26:36-56, mark 14:32-52, luke 22:39-53, john 18:1-11. see also malchus.
If we want to take them all as historical and try to reconcile them into a consistent scenario we have to build a fifth story (as JosephMalik does with his week-long Passion,
Narkissos,
Or another way to put this would be, if the shoe fits, wear it. You have your opinions, (not demonstrated) and I have mine which are demonstrated. Since the Gospels interleave so well why insist that they should not used that way in the future? It took great effort to accomplish such a task on their part. And many Gospel Parallels were written as a consequence demonstrating this. This would compensate for the lack of understanding of such events that would take place as time went on. Like the apostle Paul taught 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; So the resolving of this matter does not depend upon your comments or my comments but on each individuals own study of the matter. Now this does put to shame nearly all denominations and others denying it should the material be found truthful. But again: Ro 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. With this in mind, I would not try to restrict anyone from doing such research on their own.
Joseph
christ was crucified on what is known today as wednesday on the roman calendar - and was resurrected three days and three nights later, exactly as he said that he would.. it is also very important to keep in mind that god's biblical calendar days begin and end at sunset, hence the reason that, for example, in the biblical listing below, nisan 14 is equated with sunset tuesday to sunset wednesday (as it occurred that year, and has occasionally done in some years ever since).. sunset monday to sunset tuesday (nisan 13).
preparation of the room where christ would observe passover with the apostles, tuesday afternoon.. matthew 26:18-19, mark 14:13-16, luke 22:9-13. sunset tuesday to sunset wednesday (nisan 14).
christ observed his passover (also known as "the last supper") with the apostles, tuesday evening just after sunset.. matthew 26:20-29, mark 14:17-25, luke 22:14-38, john chapters 13-17. sermon: how to observe passoverat about 10 p.m. tuesday evening, they went out and entered the garden of gethsemane where the messiah prayed and was then arrested by the mob.. matthew 26:36-56, mark 14:32-52, luke 22:39-53, john 18:1-11. see also malchus.
Sylvia,
No problem. At least the matter has been discussed and alternate views provided for anyone else interested.
Joseph
christ was crucified on what is known today as wednesday on the roman calendar - and was resurrected three days and three nights later, exactly as he said that he would.. it is also very important to keep in mind that god's biblical calendar days begin and end at sunset, hence the reason that, for example, in the biblical listing below, nisan 14 is equated with sunset tuesday to sunset wednesday (as it occurred that year, and has occasionally done in some years ever since).. sunset monday to sunset tuesday (nisan 13).
preparation of the room where christ would observe passover with the apostles, tuesday afternoon.. matthew 26:18-19, mark 14:13-16, luke 22:9-13. sunset tuesday to sunset wednesday (nisan 14).
christ observed his passover (also known as "the last supper") with the apostles, tuesday evening just after sunset.. matthew 26:20-29, mark 14:17-25, luke 22:14-38, john chapters 13-17. sermon: how to observe passoverat about 10 p.m. tuesday evening, they went out and entered the garden of gethsemane where the messiah prayed and was then arrested by the mob.. matthew 26:36-56, mark 14:32-52, luke 22:39-53, john 18:1-11. see also malchus.
Snowbird (Sylvia).
I am sure that he did a beautiful job as far as appearances go. But the WT has fooled millions with the beautiful job they do with their lies. They even talked their followers into not partaking and threatened any that disobeyed them. Never mind that this is a basic teaching of Jesus Christ. The material he provided does not fit scripture. The Passover Lamb was NEVER eaten on the 14, just killed and prepared for the Sabbath meal that took place in the evening of that day but after the date changed to the 15th. This is Passover 101 for Jews and supported by scripture. His explanations make no sense to me but then I had studied it and detailed it so anyone can understand. Anyone interested can see this for themselves.
Joseph
