My definition of a cult wouldn't make any inroads here because I belong to a “cult.” The references to an encyclopedia's synopsis of a cult, Ray Franz and national science academies serves a purpose. Posting non-related gibberish as a response does not.
alice.in.wonderland
JoinedPosts by alice.in.wonderland
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Religion and Cults
by alice.in.wonderland ini've heard certain people here refer to jehovah's witnesses as a mind-control cult, high-control cult; theories perpetrated for how long i don't know, but at least since the days of ray franz.
i had spent nearly forty years as a full time representative, serving at every level of the organizational structure.
the last fifteen years i had spent at the international headquarters, and the final nine of those as a member of the worldwide governing body of jehovah's witnesses.
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Religion and Cults
by alice.in.wonderland ini've heard certain people here refer to jehovah's witnesses as a mind-control cult, high-control cult; theories perpetrated for how long i don't know, but at least since the days of ray franz.
i had spent nearly forty years as a full time representative, serving at every level of the organizational structure.
the last fifteen years i had spent at the international headquarters, and the final nine of those as a member of the worldwide governing body of jehovah's witnesses.
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alice.in.wonderland
I've heard certain people here refer to Jehovah's Witnesses as a mind-control cult, high-control cult; theories perpetrated for how long I don't know, but at least since the days of Ray Franz.
“I had spent nearly forty years as a full time representative, serving at every level of the organizational structure. The last fifteen years I had spent at the international headquarters, and the final nine of those as a member of the worldwide Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses. It was those final years that were the crucial period for me. Illusions there met up with reality. I have since come to appreciate the rightness of a quotation I recently read, one made by a statesman, now dead, who said: 'The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate, contrived and dishonest — but the myth—persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.' I now began to realize how large a measure of what I had based my entire adult life course on was just that, a myth — persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.” -Ray Franz
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult
The term cult pejoratively refers to a group whose beliefs or practices are reasonably considered strange. The term originally denoted a system of ritual practices.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_countercult_movement
The Christian countercult movement is a collective description for many, mostly unrelated, Christian ministries and individual Christians who oppose religious groups whose doctrines or practices do not fit within their definition of mainstream Christianity, which they consider to be cults. They are also known as discernment ministries.
The countercult movement asserts that non-Christian faiths are spiritually counterfeit and claims the authority to define "true" Christianity, and thus to define "false" Christianity. Since at least the 1940s, the approach of traditional Christians was to apply the meaning of cult such that it included those religious groups who use other scriptures beside the Bible or have teachings and practices deviating from traditional Christian teachings and practices.
Is it safe to say the scientific community would slam all religions as cults: “myth—persistent, persuasive and unrealistic” and that Ray Franz and the associated cult accusations are outdated considering that religion is slowly being dissolved by the scientific community?
http://123.100.97.202/human-science/news/article.cfm?c_id=314&objectid=10387928Science slams creationism
LONDON - The world's scientific community has united to launch one of the strongest attacks yet on creationism, warning that the origins of life were being "denied or confused".
The national science academies of 67 countries warned parents and teachers to ensure that they did not undermine the teaching of evolution or allow children to be taught that the world was created in six days.
Some schools in the US hold that evolution is merely a theory while the Bible represents the literal truth.
The statement said: "Within science courses taught in certain public systems of education, scientific data and testable theories about the origins and evolution of life on Earth are being concealed, denied, or confused with theories not testable by science."Academics have battled with neo-creationists in the in the courts over the theory known as "intelligent design" which suggests species are too complex to have evolved through natural selection and must therefore be the product of a "designer".
Leeds University plans to incorporate one or two compulsory lectures on creationism and intelligent design into its second-year course for zoology and genetics undergraduates.
Lecturers argue the theories will presented as fallacies irreconcilable with science. But the fact these "alternatives" may be formally discussed has sparked concern among scientists. -
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Ezekiel 29:12 - Prophecy of the Desolation of Egypt for 40 years
by VM44 inezekiel 29:12. new international version(1984).
i will make the land of egypt desolate among devastated lands, and her cities will lie desolate forty years among ruined cities.
and i will disperse the egyptians among the nations and scatter them through the countries.. new living translation(2007).
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Ezekiel 29:12 - Prophecy of the Desolation of Egypt for 40 years
by VM44 inezekiel 29:12. new international version(1984).
i will make the land of egypt desolate among devastated lands, and her cities will lie desolate forty years among ruined cities.
and i will disperse the egyptians among the nations and scatter them through the countries.. new living translation(2007).
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alice.in.wonderland
Leolaia, some people here have accused me of being in negative standing as one of Jehovah's Witnesses because of my participation on this discussion group. The truth of the matter is I've been somewhat irregular to the meetings because I've been recovering from from clinical anxiety and depression, that's why there was a tendency to venture on-line a bit, otherwise I wouldn't be here. However, I didn't stop receiving assistance directly from Jehovah.
However, we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the power beyond what is normal may be God’s and not that out of ourselves. 2 Corinthians 4:7
Watchtower 06/01/1994 - Have You Found the Right Religion?
"The Bible shows us how to have happy families. It provides answers that enable a person to cope with the most stressful situations in life, including rejection by close family members, catastrophic illness, and the death of a loved one. It helps us to discern our priorities so that our lives are filled with meaning instead of regret."
Ex-Jehovah's Witnesses in opposition to Jehovah's Witnesses like Barbara Anderson are Christians that progressed to spiritual maturity and for selfish reasons plummeted into a self-destructive course of rebellion against Jehovah. That's why they campaign against his human representatives. You said you were just “an unbaptized publisher as a child and as a teen.” If this is true, you're not likely in their situation.
I won't be starting a new thread here. This place is nothing but a cesspool of contamination. It's not like I can “help” anyone here. The things you say are backed by sound scholarship but the answer is no: the archeology you make reference to, doesn't change the truth about what's in Ezekiel 29:12 and the Watchtower Society's literary output on the prophecy of the desolation of Egypt for 40 years. They made an honest endeavour in reaching these conclusions. You can add me as a friend now or in the future: alice.in.wonderland profile -
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Ezekiel 29:12 - Prophecy of the Desolation of Egypt for 40 years
by VM44 inezekiel 29:12. new international version(1984).
i will make the land of egypt desolate among devastated lands, and her cities will lie desolate forty years among ruined cities.
and i will disperse the egyptians among the nations and scatter them through the countries.. new living translation(2007).
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alice.in.wonderland
Leolaia, I Googled your name in combination with Jehovah's Witnesses and turns out you're all over the internet formulating information against Jehovah's Witnesses. Freeminds even has a book: Exposing `Should You Believe In The Trinity?'
It's seems more reasonable to point to the absurdity of the Trinity than to address and disprove the trinitarian "proof texts" in the Bible. Even if these scriptures trinitarians point to stated something in plain speech like: "God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are three persons in one: A Trinity." 1 Trinity 3:16. Would this really prove anything?
ti p. 4 How Is the Trinity Explained?
"Beyond the Grasp of Human Reason"
This confusion is widespread. The Encyclopedia Americana notes that the doctrine of the Trinity is considered to be "beyond the grasp of human reason."
Many who accept the Trinity view it that same way. Monsignor Eugene Clark says: "God is one, and God is three. Since there is nothing like this in creation, we cannot understand it, but only accept it." Cardinal John O'Connor states: "We know that it is a very profound mystery, which we don't begin to understand." And Pope John Paul II speaks of "the inscrutable mystery of God the Trinity."
Thus, A Dictionary of Religious Knowledge says: "Precisely what that doctrine is, or rather precisely how it is to be explained, Trinitarians are not agreed among themselves."
Nobody really believes in the Trinity, they just say they do.
If someone were to say, "I believe 1+1+1 = 1." If this person received at least a D- in math on their first report card in kindergarten, I'd know they don't believe that.
http://www.objectivistcenter.org/cth-32-390-Religion.aspx
Most major religions have believed in the existence of a supernatural realm, a realm beyond the natural world of physical objects and bodies governed by causal laws, the world we perceive with our senses and can study by rational methods. Some religions posit a personal god (or gods); others believe in impersonal supernatural forces. (See George Walsh, The Role of Religion in History, chapter 1.) Objectivism rejects any notion of the supernatural as incompatible with the objectivity and regularity of nature as identified by reason. There is no credible evidence of miracles, magic, or other supernatural phenomena in nature.
The dominant forms of religion in our culture posit a personal god, a Supreme Being, who created the world, is omnipotent and omniscient, imposes moral duties on man, and expects worship. Those who accept this idea have the burden of showing why such a hypothesis is necessary. In this regard, Objectivists are atheists because the arguments for the existence of such a being are not sound. Objectivists reject the existence of God for the same reason they reject the existence of elves, leprechauns, and unicorns: because there is no credible evidence of such beings.
Objectivism regards reason as an absolute. It holds that all knowledge is based on the evidence of the senses. It holds that all beliefs, conclusions, and convictions must be established by logical methods of inquiry and tested by logical methods of verification. In short, it holds that the scientific approach applies to all areas of knowledge. Blind faith, by contrast, consists in belief not based on evidence, or based on such spurious forms of "evidence" as revelation and authority. Faith is essentially an arbitrary exercise of the mind, a willful credulity based on subjective emotions rather than objective evidence, a desire for certainty without the scrupulous cognitive effort required to achieve rational certainty. Faith cannot substitute for reason as a means of knowledge, nor can it supplement reason. Reason is incompatible with arbitrary procedures of any kind.
Even if you believe God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are three separate entities, outside of Jehovah's Organization you don't even have any evidence that the benevolent God of the Bible (YHWH) exists, let alone a religion with anymore truth to it than Jehovah's Witnesses. That's is why campaigning against Jehovah's Witnesses is a blind ambition or an endeavor that has no practical meaning. Maybe it's a tribute to Satan and I guess that has its own special type of reward.
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Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 06-06-10 WT Study (YOUNG PEOPLE) TEST PLEASE FORGIVE ME
by blondie inyoung people strengthen your desire to serve jehovah.
what invitation was extended to children in the christian congregation?
serve god or the wts?.
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alice.in.wonderland
I never said humans can designate specific individuals that have sinned against the holy spirit. I will say reading the things you say (poison) is telling me you have something deeply wrong with you (the fact you understand in depth the Unforgivable Sin and at the same time twist up Bible teachings). Doesn't bother me, because it's not me doing it. Very few people pursue this course. It is safe for me to say that your are an apostate. What you are doing is rotten to the core. Even my disfellowshipped mother would say so if she read this stuff. I will not be speaking with you again.
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Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 06-06-10 WT Study (YOUNG PEOPLE) TEST PLEASE FORGIVE ME
by blondie inyoung people strengthen your desire to serve jehovah.
what invitation was extended to children in the christian congregation?
serve god or the wts?.
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alice.in.wonderland
"practice things that God’s Word shows to be wicked. [If they persist in this course]"
Persistence indicates deliberateness. If there's a potencial for repentance why would they be destroyed? Though the faithful and discreet slave makes references and warnings about the reality of Armageddon (all religions have apocalyptic teachings of one kind or another), that's not why people pursue the truth about Jehovah. It's actually other religions that use manipulation about a punishment phase from God.
Re: Yes, praying may be comforting, but...:
There is also CERTAINLY the potential that you are correct and there is no god. If not, then NEITHER OF US CAN BE HELD TO BE AT FAULT. You see, if I am wrong, I am wrong, and nothing we do or have done on a 'spiritual level' has been purposeful except for our own minds. If you are wrong, you are in for a nightmare after your death, and you have only fostered the only delusion that puts anyone at risk. Yours is the most shaky position, mine is the only stable one, regardless of the outcome!
Posted by ConcernedPersonYour self-delusion is phenomenal. In fact, it's so blinding that you cannot even grasp the incredibly vicious threat that you just made with your pathetic but predictable reprisal of Pascal's Wager.
If you are wrong, YOU ARE AT FAULT for threatening perfectly innocent people (in this very message!) that they are "in for a nightmare after their death," which is, far from being a "fault free" position, VERBAL AND PSYCHOLOGICAL ABUSE AT ITS MOST SEVERE. And being a "true believer," you have undoubtedly been promoting such psychological abuse to others your entire life. If you are wrong (which I think you are), you have committed poisonous mental abuse against other people, mister. Why don't you consider THAT for a moment?
Posted by Snake_Munrohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascals_Wager Pascal's Wager (or Pascal's Gambit) is a suggestion posed by the French philosopher Blaise Pascal that even though the existence of God cannot be determined through reason, a person should wager as though God exists, because living life accordingly has everything to gain, and nothing to lose. It was set out in note 233 of his Pensées, a posthumously published collection of notes made by Pascal in his last years as he worked on a treatise on Christian apologetics.
Jehovah's Witnesses don't speak with such uncertainty or with blind manipulation:
http://www.apuritansmind.com/ChristianWalk/TheGospelOfJesusChrist.htm
The Gospel of Jesus Christ
A brief tract on what the Gospel is about in the form of an analogy called "The Treasure Map." This is great and wonderful grace of Christ who came to save his people.
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Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 06-06-10 WT Study (YOUNG PEOPLE) TEST PLEASE FORGIVE ME
by blondie inyoung people strengthen your desire to serve jehovah.
what invitation was extended to children in the christian congregation?
serve god or the wts?.
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alice.in.wonderland
"COMMENTS
Young people = only jws = survive into God’s promised new world
All 7 billion nonjws, men, women, children and babies will be destroyed, killed for eternity, no hope of a resurrection."
The only people that have a certainty of destruction at Armageddon are apostates.
w6 98/15p.511Questions From Readers
What is the unforgivable sin?—E.M.,U.S.A.
The type of sin mentioned in the Bible as being unforgivable is not simply a category such as stealing, lying or sexual immorality. These things are serious, however, and may involve unforgivable sin. (Rev. 21:8) But the unforgivable sin is deliberate sin against the manifest operation of God’s spirit. It springs from a heart that is thoroughly and forever alienated from God.
They'll never repent. Who ever wrote this isn't even any good at twisting up information, it's just a dilapidated mess after all the unnecessary pointers are added in. You might as well invent a whole new language if the intent is to confuse children to the point of no return. How do the "Bible experts" interpret Hebrews 6:4-6?
For it is impossible as regards those who have once for all been enlightened, and who have tasted the heavenly free gift, and who have become partakers of holy spirit, and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things, but who have fallen away, to revive them again to repentance, because they impale the Son of God afresh for themselves and expose him to public shame. Hebrews6:4-6
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God, Gays & Evangelicals
by alice.in.wonderland inwhile participating on this website (one of the only three places i've discussed religion online) i asked a question:.
i've observed quite a few posts and comments here about religious intolerance toward gay men and women (i'm quoting), the terror and murder of homosexuals instigated by christians.
the religion i was raised in was in agreement with the bible based view that alternative lifestyles are immoral but they never instigated any hateful rhetoric toward gay men or women.
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alice.in.wonderland
While participating on this website (one of the only three places I've discussed religion online) I asked a question:
I've observed quite a few posts and comments here about religious intolerance toward gay men and women (I'm quoting), “the terror and murder of homosexuals instigated by Christians.” The religion I was raised in was in agreement with the Bible based view that alternative lifestyles are immoral but they never instigated any hateful rhetoric toward gay men or women. I've never even been inside a traditional Christian church, so the question to those who attend Christian churches is; do they regularly condemn homosexuality and incite hate or are these claims blown out of proportion by persons opposed to Christianity?One response:
Alice,
I don't think one can accurately classify all of Christianity with one answer to these questions. There is a lot of ground to cover between, say, Progressive Christianity and Westboro Baptist Church. On one hand, Progressive Christians share many values with the politically liberal. On the other hand, Westboro Baptist Church's motto is "God Hates Fags." That's even the domain name for their website. (I'm not going to post it because I don't want to lead people to it. The link above goes to a Wikipedia page.)
God, Gays & Evangelicals - From Jill Carroll, Houston religion expert and authorI was struck this week by the image of Lakewood Church Senior Pastor Joel Osteen praying for the success of Houston's new mayor. Lakewood, the largest Christian church in North America, is a socially conservative, broadly evangelical faith community. Mayor Annise Parker is a lesbian. Continued...
Comments from gay forum participants:
Thank you for the excellent and timely post Jill. As the war between the gay community and Christianity escalates I have a feeling we will be seeing much more hate-filled rhetoric.
American evangelicals should hang their heads in shame that their own leaders have inspired legislation that is nothing short of genocidal. They have taken their "faith" to an all time low. Even though they try to deny any connection, don't ever doubt the evangelicals would introduce similar legislation in this nation if they thought they could get away with it.
Don't give Joel Osteen too much credit just yet either. If you remember last year Jay Baker, Jim and Tammy Faye Baker's son who is gay tried to meet with Joel Osteen and Osteen refused to even meet with him. Also don't forget Osteen is trying to purchase Compaq Center from the city after enjoying his sweetheart deal lease, so he needs Mayor Parker. THAT is the only reason he prayed for her, he needs her.
Homosexuals were on this Earth long before man invented Christianity, we'll be here long after it fades into history too.
Posted by: CoolGayDad at January 6, 2010 05:28 PM
I made the mistake of defending FOTF on behalf of a Catholic friend without being up to date on their policies:
Controversial advertisement removed from NCAA website Alice, you seem to miss the whole point about why the ad was pulled. FotF is an organization that is known for its anti-gay ads and rhetoric. The NCAA has a policy of inclusiveness. The public is smart enough to know when organizations like FotF use 'code' to refer to their bigoted positions, and the NCAA doesn't want its supporters or athletes to be offended. If the KKK paid CBS for the same ad, and the ad said, "All I want is for my son to grow up knowing how to do the right thing", we could make some assumptions about what the KKK meant when it said, "the right thing", and it would be highly offensive to many people simply due to the fact that it came from a discriminatory source. There's no difference. The problem is, you don't see yourself as a bigot or hater, but you are if you support organizations like FotF. Sorry if the truth hurts.
FotF pours tons of money into ads and political campaigns that they believe will further their agenda. Unfortunately, their agenda is partially to obstruct the civil rights of a large portion of society. Gays do not seek to infringe on the rights of heterosexuals, yet many heterosexuals seek to do so to gays. By allowing blacks and interracial couples the same civil rights and privileges as whites, we did not infringe on the rights of whites. Even so, many whites used the Bible as a weapon to try to prevent equal rights for minorities. I don't understand how people can't see the parallels. The Bible has been used to perpetuate slavery and to subjugate women. Christ did not intend for ancient Jewish law to be used out of context and as a weapon (and he never spoke of homosexuality) to oppress others. In fact, he would condemn the practice. This country is not a theocracy - yet. If it ever becomes one, the great experiment in constitutional democracy will have failed, despite all of our rhetoric to the contrary. We will be no better than Iran or any other theocracy. There is a petition on FofF's website that asks citizens to sign that opposes hate crime protection for gays. Apparently, they believe that because gays exhibit sexual behavior that they mistakenly believe is sinful, they should be subject to beatings and murders simply because they're gay. How is that not furthering and promoting hate?
http://www.citizenlink.org/content/A000004535.cfm
Focus Launches Petition Drive to Stop 'Hate-Crimes' Bill
Jehovah's Witnesses don't participate in attempting to use the federal government as device to control the personal lives of others that is why they're not on the hit list of those opposed to religious organizations pressing for a national theocracy. -
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Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 06-06-10 WT Study (YOUNG PEOPLE) TEST PLEASE FORGIVE ME
by blondie inyoung people strengthen your desire to serve jehovah.
what invitation was extended to children in the christian congregation?
serve god or the wts?.
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alice.in.wonderland
"It is downright sickening...these poor kids, not having a chance to think for themselves, to make a decent life for themselves...just being brain-washed perpetually with such nonsense. And it is all they know, so they accept it blindly. And it's written so childishly yet condescendingly."
The difference between Jehovah's Witnesses and influential organizations like FOTF and similar organizations is they don't attempt to divulge their teachings into public schools systems and in effect indoctrinate other people's children with their ideas.
http://www.focusonthefamily.com/
http://www.newsweek.com/2009/10/26/the-future-of-abstinence.html
The Future of Abstinence
It's been a mainstay of sex ed for more than a decade. Now, as the Obama administration cuts off federal funding, the movement scrambles for money, determined to continue its mission.
For as long as anyone can remember, McLennan County has been abstinence country. Nestled in the heart of Bible-Belt Texas, it's the kind of place where the local newspaper prints "In God We Trust" on the front page of every edition. "We're a very conservative community," says Jan Hungate, an assistant superintendent for the West Independent School District. So when the McLennan County Collaborative Abstinence Program (MCCAP) came to her a little more than a decade ago, offering an abstinence-only sex education program, she says, "It was the answer to our prayers. It was exactly the way we wanted to go." For years, each school was responsible for developing their own curriculum. Armed with the federal government's new abstinence-only grants, MCCAP offered to do the heavy lifting for free. They taught kids proper dating behavior, encouraged female students to think about their wedding days and why their virginity would matter then. In 2006 MCCAP had a $1 million budget, all from government grants, which they used to educate 6,000 to 7,000 students.
But many of the abstinence advocates NEWSWEEK talked to thought such compromises were untenable, that they could not teach students to remain abstinent until marriage while demonstrating how to use condoms. "If the funding is for a different worldview, one that says you should give condoms to kids, that's not my belief system," says Unruh. "I think it's very harmful." She and others say it's a question of morals and values, which is not an area for compromise. "Our program indicates that sex is more than physical. It's emotional. There's a lot of different aspects," says Scott Phelps, who directs A&M Partnership, an Illinois-based provider of abstinence-only curriculums. The group has a federal grant that expires in 2013. "If I'm teaching all of that, and then I'm teaching contraception, what is contraception going to do for all those consequences? It would be sort of nonsensical."