Posts by SweetBabyCheezits

Hey Cheeze! I'm glad to talk to you again. I was an idiot before when I left. Sorry bout that. I try not to take things so personally anymore. It's been going a whole lot better that way.

Water under the bridge, Dan. Religious belief and disbelief are touchy subjects (to say the least) and we're all human. It's nearly impossible not to get worked up about these things. Regardless, it's good to talk to you, too.

Please work with me here, though: How does one tell the difference between those who come out of the organization on their own and those who are drawn out by spirit?

37

My Mother-In-Law is seeing the light!

by brotherdan in

jw
friends

i posted this on another thread because i was unable to start a new one, but now i can.

here is the post:.

i have been corresponding with my mil as many of you know.

SweetBabyCheezits

Despite our differences, I'm really glad to hear about your MIL and wife! I hope your family emotionally reunites outside the Watchtower's borders.

I couldn't believe it! I knew that I wouldn't be the one to help my wife, but I knew the spirit would use SOMEONE. Never would've thought it would be my MIL.

Not trying to start a Christian vs nonChristian debate but you seem certain that the spirit is responsible for this. Curious how you account for those of us whose minds are free from WT doctrine yet remain non-theistic in belief. Is the spirit at work there or is that just chance? Or possibly just our own minds slowly opening up to see the man behind the curtain?

How do I distinguish the difference between a person who finally submits to reason versus someone who is moved by the spirit (or, in the case of your wife, who listened to someone ELSE who was moved by the spirit)?

26

"All generalizations are false, including this one."

by Mr. Falcon in

the above mark twain quote made me think about some of the comments i heard this weekend during the watchtower study.

several commentors alluded to the seeming ignorance of "wordly" people as regards bible knowledge.

comments such as "people who go to churches don't know the bible like we do, so they may go to church and afterwards say that was a very good sermon.

SweetBabyCheezits

The point is that one only has to look through the pages of history to see how generalizations, sterotypes and ignorance have lead to great human tradgedy and suffering.

Some (Heraclitus, for example) have called religion a disease or an epidemic. I think that could be boiled down to a more fundamental problem. Misinformation and counter-knowledge are the underlying disease. Religion thrives on misinformation, sure. But even without it, you'd still have ignorance breeding where critical thinking lies dormant.

That, to me, is one of the greatest obstacles in the path of mankind's progress.

26

"All generalizations are false, including this one."

by Mr. Falcon in

the above mark twain quote made me think about some of the comments i heard this weekend during the watchtower study.

several commentors alluded to the seeming ignorance of "wordly" people as regards bible knowledge.

comments such as "people who go to churches don't know the bible like we do, so they may go to church and afterwards say that was a very good sermon.

SweetBabyCheezits

By the way, I've discovered that the "best" JW illustrations were written by people who weren't JWs at all. The illustration of counterfeit money, and how tellers are only taught to identify REAL currency - I used to think my dad came up with that one. Only when I figured out the WT was bunk did I find out that the source was some nonJW minister or preacher who had written it decades earlier. Same goes for the illustration of the rocks, pebbles, and sand fitting in a jar. I've seen it attributed to Stephen Covey. I'm not absolutely sure that credit belongs to him but I highly doubt he stole it from a JW instead of vice-versa.

Also, there was another one about an elder who visited an irregular publisher and sat quietly by the fire place, then moved a red hot coal off to the side, let it cool to black, then put it back among the glowing embers where it began to glow again. That one also does not seem to originate with JWs, though they will FWD emails that share that illustration as though it comes from them.

26

"All generalizations are false, including this one."

by Mr. Falcon in

the above mark twain quote made me think about some of the comments i heard this weekend during the watchtower study.

several commentors alluded to the seeming ignorance of "wordly" people as regards bible knowledge.

comments such as "people who go to churches don't know the bible like we do, so they may go to church and afterwards say that was a very good sermon.

SweetBabyCheezits

Great post. Well-chosen Gallagher image.

I would get so nauseous sitting in meetings hearing boastful, arrogant comments.... especially during the Rev Book study. If I only had a dime for every time I heard this comment:

"People in Christendom are so terrified of the book of Revelation! [laughs] But we're thankful Jehovah has revealed the true understanding to the Faithful & Discreet Slave so we can learn the final fulfillment of Revelation and know what to expect!" [audience nods in agreement]

That kind of unwarranted back-patting ended it for me. The last time they were studying the Revelation book, I got fed up and I told my wife - who was still a believer at that time - that I was done with the cong bookstudy. That probably saved my sanity, to be lost another time.

63

Christians afraid of Carl Sagan?

by SweetBabyCheezits in

jw
friends

in looking for a particular reference to carl sagan's the demon-haunted world: science as a candle in the dark, i stumbled across this website:.

http://www.crossroad.to/q&a/science/sagan.htm.

it appears the page was created as a rebuttal against carl's book.

SweetBabyCheezits

I ain't 'fraid of no ghost!

No doubt, Syl.

I do want to make sure that Christians who read this thread don't think I'm generalizing all Christians based on the fear of one. I was just surprised that a non-JW Christian expressed a JW-like phobia of questioning his/her own beliefs.

@JamesWoods: Anyone who mistakes a sci-fi novel like Contact for non-fiction science needs to work first on common sense before delving into science. But when I think of Sagan, it makes me wonder where science would be without imagination and curiosity?

26

Thank you, and Goodbye

by cyberjesus in

thanks once again to all of those who post in this forum.

and good bye to those of you who choose to leave.. the healing process of exiting a cult is a slow one.

specially if you were born in it.

SweetBabyCheezits

Ditto

66

Could Teaching Critical Thinking Abilities, End Cult Mind-Conrol Forever?

by lifelong humanist in

in my mind, every child that undergoes an education system, whether it be a within the family, a basic pre-school kindergarten type structure, within a monitored school curriculum environment itself, or, as part of a further education programme, the emphasis should be on teaching people how to think critically, and for the common good of all.. if this was indeed the case, probably very few would succumb to mind-control techniques later on in life.

cults would struggle to dupe and recruit new members.

the cult leaders themselves, would derive little benefit from their evil mind games.

SweetBabyCheezits

It goes back to what I posted before, critical thinking is great but it isn't the answer it is the path to asking the right questions but it is NOT the answer nor doe sit have it and it can cause oen to have even MORE questions and that is what cults want because, they assure you, THEY have the answers.

Devaluing the need for critical thinking skills is like devaluing the need to teach kids how to feed themselves.

I'm not sure why anyone would try to diminish the need for critical thinking skills unless they didn't fully understand it OR they understood and feared the implications. (ie, Fear of questioning his own cherished beliefs, or having subjects question his authority, etc.)

If it's the former, you have to understand these are fundamental skills upon which to build. They are not the END of anything. They are the START. People who successfully apply critical thinking skills do not stop there, satisfied with what they've acheived. Among those skills they learn to refine their thinking continuously. (Please read Linda Elder's description in my last post.) CT skills provide a key to many doors.

Unfortunately, I get the feeling some believers take a hasty prejudice against the whole CT concept because many who promote it are non-theists. But the practicality of CT skills goes way beyond religious belief. They're applied on the job, in the family, the community, making purchases, planning for the future...

Our children are the future, right? One of mankind's greatest epidemics is the spread of misinformation. Misinformation thrives on ignorance and pride, which breeds prejudice. Prejudice against people, prejudice against ideas, prejudice against anything that lies outside the realm of one's own experience. That also applies to non-theists, so don't think I'm making this out to be a Christian vs Non-theist thing. To me the important thing is how a person draws his conclusions and what he does once he thinks he's arrived at the end. So how do we attack prejudice thriving in a bed of ignorance and misinformation? Education. But we're not going to tell anyone what to believe (try though we might). And many adults are already set in how they're going to arrive at their beliefs (media anyone?). So where do we start?

Gradeschool. Prejudice starts taking root at an early age. It is before that misinformation sets in that we need to give our children the tools (and train them) to think. Critical thinking isn't just a set of skills used to debate religious beliefs, it should be used practically throughout life to make well-informed decisions.

If CT were taught from K thru 12 in public school, it would be a great start. By no means do I believe that would that be the end of high-control groups (including but not limited to the fact that some kids won't apply it) but I do think it could only help suppress cults. I'm not saying I've considered all the logistics but you have to start somewhere. Why not there?

66

Could Teaching Critical Thinking Abilities, End Cult Mind-Conrol Forever?

by lifelong humanist in

in my mind, every child that undergoes an education system, whether it be a within the family, a basic pre-school kindergarten type structure, within a monitored school curriculum environment itself, or, as part of a further education programme, the emphasis should be on teaching people how to think critically, and for the common good of all.. if this was indeed the case, probably very few would succumb to mind-control techniques later on in life.

cults would struggle to dupe and recruit new members.

the cult leaders themselves, would derive little benefit from their evil mind games.

SweetBabyCheezits

There's a whole lotta leaf-hacking going on in this thread. I applaud you, Lifelong Humanist, for recognizing the root: the fundamental need for children to learn and develop critical thinking. That is the key that will allow them to unlock the other doors on their own. Give a man to fish vs teach a man to fish.

For those who assume they know all they need to know about critical thinking, this is one of the better summaries I've seen: "Critical thinking is self-guided, self-disciplined thinking which attempts to reason at the highest level of quality in a fair-minded way. People who think critically consistently attempt to live rationally, reasonably, empathically. They are keenly aware of the inherently flawed nature of human thinking when left unchecked. They strive to diminish the power of their egocentric and sociocentric tendencies. They use the intellectual tools that critical thinking offers – concepts and principles that enable them to analyze, assess, and improve thinking. They work diligently to develop the intellectual virtues of intellectual integrity, intellectual humility, intellectual civility, intellectual empathy, intellectual sense of justice and confidence in reason. They realize that no matter how skilled they are as thinkers, they can always improve their reasoning abilities and they will always at times fall prey to mistakes in reasoning, human irrationality, prejudices, biases, distortions, uncritically accepted social rules and taboos, self-interest, and vested interest. They strive to improve the world in whatever ways they can and contribute to a more rational, civilized society. At the same time, they recognize the complexities often inherent in doing so. They strive never to think simplistically about complicated issues and always consider the rights and needs of relevant others. They recognize the complexities in developing as thinkers, and commit themselves to life-long practice toward self-improvement. They embody the Socratic principle: The unexamined life is not worth living, because they realize that many unexamined lives together result in an uncritical, unjust, dangerous world."

-Linda Elder, September 2007