Thanks for nice comments! I'm not on here too much anymore (first joined 13 years ago!). I had my project on Randy Watters website at one point, but I know he re-did his site and I'm not sure if it's still up there or not. Barbara Anderson also had a link for it on her website. Whether or not she still does, I don't know. I'll see if I can find out and let you know. (although some parts of it might be outdated now--like the 'generation' doctrine. I think it's been changed at least twice since I did the project in 2008).
Posts by Mary
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14Disfelowshipping / Expelling
by freein2004 inthe insight book volume 1 page 788 uses matthew 5:22 and acts 10:28 as biblical support for dfing and shunning.. thoughts?
hopefully someone upload the insight book page here.
i don't have the means.. i should have said that basically the top paragraph in the insight book is supporting shunning because the israelites shunned the man of the nations and tax collectors?
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16
New donation arrangement in action locally
by respectful_observer inrecently they announced at my hall that a large donation had been made to the local congregation-- nearly $100,000.
they then proposed a resolution that we continue our new(ish) practice of only keeping enough money on hand locally for monthly expenses, and send the entire amount of this large donation to the watchtower society.
aside from the fact that our congregation has already sent well over a half-million dollars to the wt in the last 12 months, i don't understand the motive of the person who made the donation.
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Mary
Doesn't surprise me really. Big Brother wants as much cha-ching as they can possibly get their grubby greedy hands on because someone's got to pay for all these multi-million dollar lawsuits that keep getting levied against the Borg. Who better to pay than the local congregations!
While I don't know if it's written in stone, I remember about 10 or 12 years ago at one of the (last) circuit ASSemblies I went to, they came up with "a new resolution". The gist of it was that they would pledge to send X amount of dollars to Crooklyn even if there wasn't enough left over to pay the bills for having the assembly. Everyone would just have to pony up some more $$$.
It sounds like this is the consensus at the congregation level too. Despite the fact that your KH obviously needs major repair work done, the elders are given some not-so-subtle hints that Jehovah will bless them more if they send all that money to headquarters. So unless whoever gave that money specifically stipulated that it was to be used at the congregation level, in all likelihood, that's exactly what's going to happen. -
14
Disfelowshipping / Expelling
by freein2004 inthe insight book volume 1 page 788 uses matthew 5:22 and acts 10:28 as biblical support for dfing and shunning.. thoughts?
hopefully someone upload the insight book page here.
i don't have the means.. i should have said that basically the top paragraph in the insight book is supporting shunning because the israelites shunned the man of the nations and tax collectors?
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Mary
I did a project several years ago about the problems with many of their doctrines and disfellowshipping was one of them. I'll paraphrase some of what was in my project below:
"The practice of disfellowshipping members and not speaking to them might appear to have support from the scriptures, one needs to take a look at both the culture and religious practices in Judaism and in the early Christian congregation to fully understand what the scriptures are saying.
The primary scripture the Society uses for justification in this doctrine is found in 1 Corinthians 5:11 which says:
“But now I am writing you to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man.” [1]
The scripture cited above in 1 Corinthians is clear that a person with whom the congregation should not mix company is one who is:
1) "called a brother" (that is, one who professes to be a member of the congregation); and those who:
2) practicing fornication, greed, idiolatry, reviling (insulting), habitual drunkenness, and/or extortion (theft).
Here we need to know what the customs of fellowship and worship were practiced by first-century Jews and Christians (keeping in mind that Jesus and his apostles were Jews.) They lived according to the Jewish lifestyle and customs of their day. Jesus taught in the synagogues, kept the Jewish holidays and lived the life of a Jew; He was also called "Rabbi." Matt.26:25; 26:49; Mark 9:5; 11:21; 14:25; John 1:38, 49; 3:2, 26; 4:31; 6:25; 9:2; 11:8
There were two kinds of association for religious worship amongst first century Jews:
1) The public meetings, such as those at the temple and in the synagogues which anyone was allowed to attend.
2) The intimate private gatherings of the different sects (in Judaism for example, there were the Pharisees, Sadducees, Zealots and Essenes). Christians and Jews participated in both. Since the Christians at that time did not have a public meeting place that they could call their own, they used both the Synagogues and also met in private homes, usually over a special meal with prayer.
Christians were instructed to "greet" one another with a kiss. (Rom.16:16; 1.Cor.16:20; 2Cor.13:12; Ti.3:15; 1Pet.5:14) When Paul sent his "greetings" in a letter to the Christians in Thessalonica, he asked that the brothers be greeted with a "holy kiss" on his behalf. (1Thess.5:26) This was a custom both amongst the Jews and Christians of the first century, it had a special significance of close companionship amongst those who were related either by blood or by their faith.
Clearly, Paul did instruct Christians to expel from the congregation fellowship those who were purposely practicing willful sin. The expulsion would naturally exclude them from being greeted by the identifying "holy kiss," as well as not being allowed to share in meetings and the meals for Christian worship and prayer.
However, Paul's instruction did not prohibit normal conversation or witnessing to former members. Nor were the guilty party barred from attending worship in the temple or the synagogues. Jesus, the apostles and Paul, along with the rest of the Jews, worshiped God both publicly in the temple and synagogues, and privately with small groups in various homes. (Acts 5:42) It was from the private Christian fellowship for worship that sinners were excluded.
What of the scripture that says: “If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. For he that says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works.” The above scripture is not talking about those who had been expelled from the Christian congregation. If you read verse 10 it is clear that it is talking about someone who does not “acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.”
This included Jews that rejected Jesus and people of the nations worshipping other Gods. Yet the Watchtower stance is to apply this only to Jehovah's Witnesses. The meaning of the phrase “never receive him into YOUR homes” should be understood in the context of the hospitality of first century Jerusalem. Since Christians held congregation meetings in their homes John possibly felt that inviting a denier of Christ into a home could be viewed as sharing worship with non-Christians. Likewise the term to never “say a greeting” to him needs to be understood in light of first century practice. The Organization claims that even saying “hello” to someone who had been disfellowshipped was prohibited:
“John here used khai´ro, which was a greeting like “good day” or “hello.” (Acts 15:23; Matthew 28:9) He did not use Aspa´zo Amai (as in verse 13), which means “to enfold in the arms, thus to greet, to welcome” and may have implied a very warm greeting, even with an embrace. (Luke 10:4; 11:43; Acts 20:1, 37; 1 Thessalonians 5:26) So the direction at 2 John 11 could well mean not to say even “hello” to such ones.”
This article claims the word khai’ro is used to forbid a simple greeting, instead of aspa’zo mai which means a more affectionate embrace, enfolding in the arms, kiss, greeting or welcome. Of course, the average Witness is going to take this at face value, which is unfortunate because Strong’s Concordance defines the two words as just the opposite of what this Watchtower is claiming:
5463 chairo {khah'-ee-ro} 1) to rejoice, be glad 2) to rejoice exceedingly 3) to be well, thrive 4) in salutations, hail! 5) at the beginning of letters: to give one greeting, salute
783 aspasmos {as-pas-mos’} 1) a salutation, either oral or written
By applying the word khai’ro to the quote at 2 John 11, it is clear that the early Christian congregation did not completely ignore such ones. While they would not have ‘greeted them with a holy kiss’ or display an overly zealous greeting, it is obvious that they would have greeted the person in a courteous manner.
If the scripture at 2 John 10 were observed literally by Jehovah's Witnesses, they would be obliged to never to speak to anyone other than another Witness in good standing. Yet Witnesses work with people with various backgrounds including Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Atheists.....none of whom believe that Jesus was the Messiah. Why are they allowed to speak with these people, yet are obliged to shun life long friends and even family members when they get disfellowshipped?
How did Jesus say one expelled from congregation should be treated? Far from cutting the person off completely, Jesus encouraged kindness:
“Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go lay bare his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, in order that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations ['Gentile' in some translations] and as a tax collector.”
The instruction was to bring up the matter of sin first between the two individuals alone. If the sinner repented, there was no need to carry the matter further. If the sinner was not repentant, then one or two others should be sought for witnesses. If the sinner remained unrepentant, only then, as a last resort, should it be brought before the entire congregation (not privately with the "elders"). If, after all that, the person still would not listen, he should then be treated the same as Gentiles and tax collectors. In other words, Christians were to treat former members just like anyone else who was not a member of the congregation. To be treated like a "man of the nations" (which is to say, a Gentile or foreigner) was far from being shunned. Jewish people worked with, associated with, transacted business with, and preached to Gentiles. As for "tax collectors," Jesus ate and associated with them. Matthew was a tax collector. Tax collectors were not popular, but they were not shunned.
The ironic thing about the Organizations’ view of disfellowshipping, is that they do not ‘practice what they preach’. For example, Jehovah's Witnesses do not disfellowship greedy persons. They often do not disfellowship people who regularly get drunk unless their conduct becomes so outrageous and publicly-known as to bring reproach upon Jehovah's Witnesses.
They do not disfellowship people for many of the things which they themselves class as "idolatry" (for example: materialism, worshipping an organization, etc.).
On the other hand, Jehovah's Witnesses do disfellowship and shun people for:
Celebrating a birthday, Christmas, Easter, or other secular holidays (even though the founder of the religion, Charles Russell saw no problem with celebrating such days); discussing personal views of the scriptures with anyone if your viewpoint differs from with the Governing Body says is ‘truth’, Independent study and discussion of the Bible that brings Watchtower doctrine into question (even though the scriptures specifically tell Christians to “make sure of all things, possession of literature written by former members, going public with evidence that the Organization has covered up acts of pedophilia over the years (as in the case of Barbara Anderson) attending a service of any other church or religious organization, authorizing a blood transfusion, even to save the life of a child.
It should also be noted that nowhere in the scriptures does it indicate that either Jesus or his disciples were ‘disfellowshipped’ by the Pharisees from Jewish fellowship, for promoting ideas that differed from what the Pharisees taught. They were hated by many for sure, but they were never shunned.
Ironically, the Organization likes to use the example of Diotrephes as:
“A man mentioned by the apostle John in his letter to Gaius. In addition to being ambitious, proud, disrespectful of apostolic authority, rebellious, and inhospitable, Diotrephes tried to hinder those desiring to show hospitality to the brothers and to expel these from the congregation”
In actuality, Diotrephes was being reprimanded for attempting to disfellowship “those desiring to show hospitality to the brothers” by expelling them “from the congregation”.
Both Brother Russell and Judge Rutherford were more lenient towards doctrinal disagreements, as they realized that trying to force all believers to think alike on doctrine is what originally caused the “great apostasy” in the first place:
“Satans organization sails under the high-sounding name of "Christendom". It boasts of a membership of over 500,000,000 persons. Its members are in bondage to creeds, customs, rites and ceremonies; they dare not disown these or criticize or expose them. To do so would bring down on their heads taunts, reproaches, disfellowship and persecution. Many thousands of the Lords people are held in these denominations as prisoners, afraid to express their disapproval of the creeds, methods and customs of the organization.” [1]
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[1] Watchtower 1930 October 1 p.301
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36
Devouring the Forbidden Fruit - Higher Education
by cappytan inwell, i told my wife over the weekend i was going to go back school to finish my degree.
she is 100% supportive of it!
apparently she doesn't think higher education is so evil either.. since my former major was computer programming and that was in the late 1990's, i was told i'd have to retake a bunch of classes since times have changed.
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Mary
Thanks cappytan. I could only watch about 4 minutes of the BS before I felt nauseated. I'll try watching the rest tomorrow.
Kudos to you for going back to get your degree!
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Devouring the Forbidden Fruit - Higher Education
by cappytan inwell, i told my wife over the weekend i was going to go back school to finish my degree.
she is 100% supportive of it!
apparently she doesn't think higher education is so evil either.. since my former major was computer programming and that was in the late 1990's, i was told i'd have to retake a bunch of classes since times have changed.
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Mary
"...Did the recent jw tv anti education broadcasts cement the deal for you to go back to college?"
Can someone post the link to this? I've recently had 2 JWs (my sister and another old friend who has started going back to the KH tell me that they've changed their stand on 'higher education' and that university is a-okay now. I find this very hard to believe and I was wondering if anyone had read anything in the literature about this...... -
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talk me off the cliff please
by sowhatnow inmy son, at age 25 finally, was able to get accepted into a community college.
but i dont have words of joy to share with him.
im instead dizzy with fear of possible financial failure.
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Mary
sowhatnow, sorry to say this, but you really need to be more positive for your son's sake. He's doing one of the smartest things a young person can do: getting an education and learning some good skills. If you endlessly look at the negative side of everything, it's going to end up affecting him and his studies. Yes, he'll come out of college owing money. Most people do. My cousin came out of medical school owing over $150,000 in student loans, but he's a frigging doctor now and is glad he went to university.
From what you've written, your son is smart, so there's no reason to think that he's not going to be able to get a decent job once he's done college. So instead of worrying about what might happen down the road, you need to concentrate on the positive aspects of what he's doing. He'll thank you for it in the long run.
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Blondie's Comments on the 1-18-2015 WT Study (HOLY)
by blondie innovember 15, 2014 wt study issue.
january 18, 2015 to be studied.
opening comments.
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Mary
"...Of course, none of us should feel pressured to devote many hours to the ministry just to be able to turn in a larger report of our share in the field service...."
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WT Library
by MsTruthSeeker2014 indoes anyone have the link to dl the wt library?
i was looking for some mag from the 1900s and see that the jw org site only goes back to 2000.
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Mary
Bookmarked!
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Jehovah's Witnesses have the lowest retention rate of any U.S. religion
by new light inwell i'll be darned.
serves 'em right.
man does that put a smile on my face.'.
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Mary
Very interesting! Wonder if this'll be in the next Kingdom Ministry.
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AAWA activists burst into a Kingdom Hall in Kent!
by raymond frantz inaawa activists burst into a kingdom hall in kent.
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Mary
Not a good idea at all. All this does is feed the 'mentally diseased apostates' preconceived ideas that they have about us and they're not going to pay the slightest attention to anything that's said. We all know the mindset of Witnesses and this sort of tactic isn't going to get you anywhere.
