Posts by jst2laws

41

Is The Governing Body EVIL?

by jst2laws in

i am going to stick my neck out and postulate that the gb is not evil .

nor is the watchtower society as a whole.

i'm sorry this got a little long but please accept the challenge and show me wrong.

Nice to hear from you. You know a year ago I would not even address your responses to my threads because you intimidated me. Now I view you as a friend with no fear. So forgive me for differing with you.

Yes. The GB knew for years that alternative military service could not be supported in scripture, yet they allowed countless thousands of young men to be imprisoned because they were afraid of repurcussions.

I agree. They allowed this to happen for years of needless harm. Yes, they were afraid. But of what? The men I knew in the 60’s and 70’s were afraid of changing things they did not understand. They believed in Fredie’s inspiration and just followed. They were in a position to change things in the last 20 years but being followers they, like most of us, dared not change the “truth”.

The same is true today of the blood issue. They know their stance is wrong. Why do you think they've slowly kept softening their position over the years? And people still die because they knowingly harm others for "something they can get out of it": being protected from lawsuits, and not having to admit they were wrong.

I suspect you are right, “they know their stance is wrong”. This is one of their biggest pickles that probably plaques the GB. But remember these boys did not formulate this policy, they inherited it. And remember they are probably afraid to change anything they do not understand. So now you have a GB composed mostly of men who can no long tie their own shoes or feed themselves who follow the lead of the legal dept. The legal dept I suspect believes they are rectifying divine teachings with imminent litigation, seeking ‘theocratic strategy’ that will ‘vindicate Jehovah’s name’. It is BS and a tragedy. But is it truly of evil intent? I know many if not most of these guys really believe they are doing what is right. Sad, isn’t it!

They are a bunch of self-worshiping, self-glorifing, self-promoting evil men.

If your right, Farkel, that would make them “evil”. It is hard to be liberal here, but I’m trying not to be judgmental. I’m inclined to believe most of the individual members of the GB are not smart enough to be so cunning. Jst my opinion.

If not that, they are murderous assholes. Let's not mince definitions. Judas is considered one of the most evil men in the Bible, yet he merely succombed to a weak moment and sold Jesus out for a few bucks. The GB collectively have sold out millions and killed thousands over the decades and yet they themselves live like and are treated like kings, and only change when they have no other choice.

“assholes”? Not sure but understand the emotion behind the comment. The part we agree on 100% is they “only change when they have no other choice”.

Let's not mince definitions here, jst2laws. I see you're still in your own "Crisis of Conscience" process. That's fine. You're just where you need to be. I wish you the best in sorting it all out for yourself.

Farkel, you are way ahead in this process than I, so you may be right. But I am not defending these guys. What they are doing is wrong. As to my crisis of conscience, I thought I was past that phase. If I am still in my “own crisis of conscience” how do I emerge from this? I was quoting Ray Franz as to “victims of victims”. Do you feel he too is still in his “Crisis of Conscience”?

I have only raised the issue of motivation. Can we judge these without judging ourselves at least to some degree. Having known a generation of these old men I have stated my perspective. The question remains in my mind, are they evil or high level followers?

Jst2laws

41

Is The Governing Body EVIL?

by jst2laws in

i am going to stick my neck out and postulate that the gb is not evil .

nor is the watchtower society as a whole.

i'm sorry this got a little long but please accept the challenge and show me wrong.

jst2laws

Path,

On my anniversary post in early March I noticed you were one of the most influential respondents to my original post last year. I just wanted to say first that you have often impressed me yet I have failed to express this to you and others appropriately.

You said:

By failing to act on this information, while at the same time having accepted a position of responsibility, they should be held accountable for their actions and those directly influenced by them

That is very logical. We all feel compelled to hold someone at the top responsible. They led us wrong and we were harmed by that lead.

But my question is not whether or not they mislead us, but whether or not they knowingly mislead us. My personal opinion is that there must have been some there either on the GB or in the writing or service dept. that knew enough to object. It seems some did and got thrown out. I suspect there are others who kept quiet and supported a harmful system to protect themselves from exposure.

That I believe would be 'Evil'.

This may be the case of some on the GB. But my experience was that most of the GB were appointed not because of their reputation as researchers and independent thinkers. They stuck it out at Bethel long enough to get appointed by seniority or default. Later they started to bring big shots in from outside Brooklyn Bethel who proved themselves not by their intellect or history of intense Bible research but incontestable support of the system, dependable 'followers'.

So, yes, they "accepted a position of responsibility" and perhaps "they should be held accountable for their actions and those directly influenced by them." But if they were still followers of a harmful system already set in motion, whatever level they served, are they that much more reprehensible before God. Most of us to different degrees 'followed' and 'harmed' others during our involvement in the organization.

So we may be talking of degrees of accountability. Does that translate to degrees of "Evil"? If so, we were all evil to some degree.

I am not so hard on myself or others on this board. I do not believe we have many evil people here. We were 'victims'.

Is Ray F. wrong that the GB too were 'victims of victims.'?

Jst2laws

41

Is The Governing Body EVIL?

by jst2laws in

i am going to stick my neck out and postulate that the gb is not evil .

nor is the watchtower society as a whole.

i'm sorry this got a little long but please accept the challenge and show me wrong.

jst2laws

Dear dungbeetle,

Please do not confuse my expressions above as an excuse for so much harm caused by this heartless machine.

The atrocities you cite above are unexcusable. Their stand on 'blood', 'shunning', and 'pedophiles' is difinitely HARMFUL.
I an not excusing any of this.

The question I raise is more social or phsycological than LEGAL. The GB has made decisions that has caused harm and they have refused to change policy that continues to harm.

The question is really how we define "EVIL". If we are too broad in our condemnation we may also condemn ourselves. I do not feel you or I should feel excessive guilt for our participation because we were 'followers'. I feel like a fool for following, but what can we do now?

Ray Franz did not feel the men he sat with across the GB table were Evil! They were defending a system they thought was God's arrangement. We agree they were wrong but does that make them evil?

Jst2laws

4

"Look at the Fruits" Says the Watchtower

by stevieb1 in

we know how much in the way of doctrine is scripturally deficient in the watchtower organization, but they will always come back and say something on the following lines:.

* look at the fruit of our works.

millions are coming to an accurate knowledge about jehovah who would never get to know him where it not for our preaching activities carried out worldwide.

jst2laws

Stevie,
I can remember trying to answer these questions when I ran into a locally notorious apostate in my territory a few years ago. I ran a barrage of questions by him he did not effectively answer for me. Now it is my turn to try in brief to answer them for myself.

* Look at the fruit of our works. Millions are coming to an accurate knowledge about Jehovah who would never get to know Him where it not for our preaching activities carried out worldwide

How can anyone speak of an ‘accurate knowledge about Jehovah’ if even the WT society can not point to any evidence that we know ‘accurately’ that his name is “Jehovah”? If God wanted us to know Him as the God of the Hebrew named “Jehovah” wouldn’t he have left us certain evidence of how to even pronounce the name? If it is ‘accurate’ why is there no evidence that ANYONE can point at to show Jesus once uttered the Hebrew divine name? Not once is the tetragramaton in any ancient copy of the Christian scriptures. Perhaps Jesus was teaching us to get to ‘know him’ as our Loving Father rather than the old revelation of a jealous, vindictive God as He appeared to the Jews?

As to “look at the fruit”, what did they say when the numbers dropped in 2000? ‘God is not impressed with numbers’.

* We are the only people who truly love one another no matter where we are from. Other religionists kill one another, but we would never do that. Surely this indicates that we have the truth.

Is it true love? Unconditional love? Are we not to love ‘our enemies’. How do the witness show love for their ultimate enemies, friends and relatives who differ with their teachings? There are many other international organizations who show the same kind of support and conditional love for those who stay within the program. Like the Witnesses they are known as cults.

We are the only ones that stress the importance of God's Name

Big clue (see above). To go back to the Hebrew scriptures and try to resurrect the lost name of the God of a system that was only designed to ‘make sins manifest’ is not Christianity, its is Judaic (Gal 3:19).

Who else is preaching the good news of God's Kingdom - only Jehovah's Witnesses.

Yes, the Good News of the Kingdom must be preached according to Matt. 24:14. Why though after Philip does not one Bible writer mention the “good news of the kingdom”? They do preach a good news, mentioned over 100 times in the Christian scriptures (compared to about 9 ref to the ‘good news of the kingdom’). Whatever they preached it was the good news that fulfilled the prophesy. But it is a good news of which my witnesses brothers know nothing. That is a story of its own.
Jst2laws

41

Is The Governing Body EVIL?

by jst2laws in

i am going to stick my neck out and postulate that the gb is not evil .

nor is the watchtower society as a whole.

i'm sorry this got a little long but please accept the challenge and show me wrong.

jst2laws

I am going to stick my neck out and postulate that the GB is not EVIL
nor is the Watchtower society as a whole. I'm sorry this got a little long but please accept the challenge and show me wrong.

Evil= 1 Morally wrong or bad, wicked; 2 Harmful, injurious.
(Random House Webster’s Dictionary)

By this dictionary definition we are all Evil at times. Are we now to try to evaluate levels of evil or duration of periods of evil to determine who is more evil than others?

I like a different definition that I got from Scott Peck in his book People of the Lie. Though I cannot quote an exact reference my recollection is that he defined an evil person as one who will harm others knowingly for what he can gain out of it.

If we accept this definition, I ask again “Is the GB Evil?”

Ray Franz in his book Crisis of Conscience on page 262 says:

I feel only compassion for those men I know, for I too was such a “victim of victims” a “follower of followers”.

I admire Ray’s candor and forbearance. He also relates evidence that N.H. Knorr too was a “victim of victims” on page 248 of C of C in regard to the 1914 controversy:

There are some things I know---I know that Jehovah is God, that Christ Jesus is his son, that he gave his life as a ransom for us, that there is a resurrection. Other things I’m not so certain about. 1914---I don’t know. We have talked about 1914 for a long time. We may be right and I hope we are.

Having served at Bethel from the late 60’s to the mid 70’ Nathan Knorr was probably my least liked member of the GB (most of the time I was there he WAS the GB). Yet even his comments sound not like a man bent on harming people for what he could get out of it, but perhaps a ‘follower of followers’, ‘victim of victims’. My feeling about the other members of the GB whom I knew is the same.

We were once all ‘followers of followers’. As such we all did things that caused harm to others.

Did we not lead others to the same victimization by our sharing in the “kingdom preaching”?

Did we by word and example recommend the “truth” to co-workers, relatives, neighbors and friends? (God forbid)

Did not some of us raise our children into this same dependency as followers of followers? ( I have asked my kids to forgive me)

Some of us have been even more evil(?) as a follower. I went along with decisions of the body that I was certain would harm someone. I justified it for what I believed would be for the good overall for the individual or the congregation. I really believed it at the time. Now I see I isolated needy people from support and separated family members.

How many of you at one time shunned DF’d or DA’d friends or relatives knowing it hurt them but believing it was right and good for all concerned?

Does this make us all EVIL, or does it indicate we were victims of victims?

I have dealt with some evil people (individuals) inside the organization. Yes, I believe we have all run into those individuals who would hurt us or others intentionally to obtain their goals. In my case they were mostly Bethelites, CO’s, DO’s, Elders and several manipulative, self-righteous sisters. But these were individuals who knowingly harmed others .

Yes we will find evil people in the Christian Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses, Inc. But if finding evil individuals inside an organization of ‘followers’ makes the entire organization and its leadership EVIL, then the WT is right in labeling all governments, religions, and commerce as evil on the same bases. I think not.

But the GB claims to speak for God! This is profound, I agree. Does this claim make them more reprehensible? Perhaps. You tell me. So far I see “followers of followers”, even those appointed and told they ‘speak for God’ as victims of previous propaganda, a terrible delusion. At that level rather than evil in these men, I see the height of delusion and stupidity.

What do you think? Now be kind!

Jst2laws

37

Update on AlanF's Daughter

by AlanF in

jw
friends

now that dad has recovered his equilibrium, i just wanted to say a huge thanks to everyone who expressed concern about my daughter the last couple of weeks.

in the great scheme of things this is a minor matter but it sure affected me!

i guess my family has been pretty lucky compared to others.. anyway, julie (that's the daughter one, not the wifely one) recovered so fast that she returned to school this past monday.

jst2laws

Alan and family,

Scary! Dont want to think of kids in hospitals anymore. Glad to hear your almost through this.

Thanks for the update.

Jst2laws

31

WTS says you are free to do what we tell you

by ozziepost in

jw
friends

the may 15 issue of the watchtower contains a discussion of the question: would it be advisable for a true christian to attend a funeral or a wedding in a church?.

the tone of the wts view is set in the very first line our taking part in any form of false religion is displeasing to jehovah and must be avoided.

nonetheless the last line of the article states whatever the situation, the christian should make sure that the decision will not interfere with his preserving a good conscience before god and men.. so apparently it's a personal decision for the jw as to whether he/she will attend a funeral in a church or not.

jst2laws

Star,

My wife and I feel the same. Can hardly bear even once a month now.

Since we have made great progress with our extended family, and have only a few true friends inside, I wonder if we might do more good by exiting with a bang?

Js2laws

26

New To The Board

by MarchOn in

jw
friends

i should clarify, i am new at posting, not new to the board.. i've been checking in for a short time now.

"spying", "lurking", whatever you would like to call it.

but i thought it was time to come out of the "first closet" i've been in for more than 20 years.

jst2laws

Hello March on,

Many here like myself are just coming out. It is great to have others to talk to who have been through what you have.

I'm looking forward to your support and will do what ever I can to help others.

Excellent!

Hey JT,

Very insightful.

Js2laws

92

Do any of you know each other?

by Lost Diamond in

i was just wondering....how many of you have actually met each other?

i'm new here.

what i mean is, are there regular reunions where one can go and meet other ex-jw's face to face?

jst2laws

Megadude,

I'll provide the place and the brew but you have to bring your share of issues to debate.

We can do it here, or do you want to meet us in the Great South Land?

Venice,

Thanks Ven. But I admit I was a bad influence on you Dad. Hope he rides that new motorcycle defensively.

Jst2laws

92

Do any of you know each other?

by Lost Diamond in

i was just wondering....how many of you have actually met each other?

i'm new here.

what i mean is, are there regular reunions where one can go and meet other ex-jw's face to face?

jst2laws

Hey Ozzie!

We want to visit too! We aren't as much fun as Ven (We've met her) but I think we would be tolerable. Right Ven? We are tolerable aren't we. Joy is more fun than me. I just bore people with controversial issues.

But we really hope to come to the Great South Land some day.

Jst2laws