Posts by jst2laws

41

Is The Governing Body EVIL?

by jst2laws in

i am going to stick my neck out and postulate that the gb is not evil .

nor is the watchtower society as a whole.

i'm sorry this got a little long but please accept the challenge and show me wrong.

jst2laws

Hello again Winsome,

Thanks for the research.

I think the Governing Body should receive the "heavier judgment" from God as being truly evil. (James 3:1) We can say they are evil, based upon the "fruitage" they produce as leaders. Namely, the type of people produced. A crop of pathetic WT "organization" worshipers, or worshipers of men instead of worshipers of God.

I like the way you express this. Your reasoning has validity as well. I was unable to find the translation you used to render Matt 12:33-34 but Vs 34 'you snakes' and the context of the chapter seem to allow for the rendering 'you people make the tree ' fine or rotten. If this is true your comparison of the 'tree' to an Organization and its leaders responsibility seems reasonable.

My only reservation is vs. 35 of Mat 12:

You snakes--how can you say good things when you are evil? For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of. 35 A good person brings good things out of his treasure of good things; a bad person brings bad things out of his treasure of bad things.
36 "You can be sure that on the Judgment Day everyone will have to give account of every useless word he has ever spoken. 37 Your words will be used to judge you--to declare you either innocent or guilty."
TEV Matt 12:34-37

While the chapter condemns the religious leaders as a group, vs. 35 speaks individually of "a good person" and a "bad person". Then vs. 36 says: "on the Judgment Day everyone will have to give account".
I'm not going to be dogmatic about this but it appears we can condemn as evil a "tree" or organization and its fruitage as well as the " blind guides" and "white washed graves" full of dead men's bones. But judgment is ultimately on an individual bases, "person" by "person".
If that is true of the individuals responsible for the 'tree' or 'organization' that killed Jesus, then what of the present organizations(plural) that claim to have divine authority.

I'm not going to carry that thought any further because I realize we are in an environment of recovering victims and it may be best to not open old wounds or appear to excuse the evil we have suffered.

Thanks again for your thought. If you would like, email me at [email protected]

Jst2laws

16

what does grace mean to JHW?

by evangelist in

i would like to know what the grace of god mean to jhw, and why they try to work for something that is a gift and is free from god?.

maybe some one can help with this information.

jst2laws

Evangelist,

Simple answer to your question, Nothing. As Justin explained the word "grace" is replace in their translation and their minds as "undeserved kindness". Yet they do not understand this term either. By implications in the Wt lit they feel undeserved kindness is also something they must earn to deserve it.

The whole concept of grace or salvation by faith, while mentioned in the literature, is foreign to JW's.

Jst2laws

41

Is The Governing Body EVIL?

by jst2laws in

i am going to stick my neck out and postulate that the gb is not evil .

nor is the watchtower society as a whole.

i'm sorry this got a little long but please accept the challenge and show me wrong.

jst2laws

winsome,

Excellent selection. Now I'm wondering where is Lonewolf. That was a masterpiece.

As to what it proves regarding the original issues I'm not sure. The men I knew in the 60's and 70's were mostly incompetent. But over the years enough has been presented to them, such as the reasoning of lonewolf, that I'm not sure incompetence combined with blind loyalty to what they believed can excuse them.

Who can tell. I really believe they started out in positions of authority as 'followers' but as has been presented on this thread, they had ample opportunity to learn and take a stand. Its clear they did not. If they had functioning brain cells when they individually chose to ignore the facts and continue propaganda the "lie" is between themselves and God. If they are exempt of responsibility for the evil they have caused then most of us here should be seated next to God.

I don't mind admitting I am growing spiritual in front of many. I posed the question as 'devil's advocate' or 'angel's advocate', whatever!

But I still believe good or evil is something we each merit as individuals rather than our association. But then, our choice of association and choice to remove ourselves from evil association says something about ourselves too! I hope that is why most of us are here rather than there.

Thanks for your response,

Jst2laws

49

Any ExJW kids out there?

by Bubbles in

jw
friends

i am 7 years old and would like to make some friends with any ex jw kids out there.. i like music, dancing, movies (just saw clockstoppers, it was awesome), books.

we are about to move and i made a house out of the boxes!

my mom says i should be an engineer when i grow up because i can make lots of neat things with the boxes!.

jst2laws

Bubbles,

It looks like you have found a possible pen pal with stardust. I'm glad for you. Most of us here are like parents or grandparents but we are all children in some way. I hope you and stardust find many things in common and many more friends. I am proud of your mom to encourage you to do this. A big step in life for a big girl like you.

Jst2laws

6

The Anointed and "Grieving G...

by winsome in

the jws claim to have some 8,730 "anointed" footstep followers of jesus christ among themselves.

all supposedly "led by the spirit" as spiritual "sons" of god.

(romans 8:14).

jst2laws

Very interesting Winsome,

If you could condense your post to a one page letter and somehow send it to every "anointed" witness with some non "apostate" references" that they would accept as authoritative prove, you might cause a revolution within the "anointed" community.

I would send along a couple of the WT written responses to the UN scandal. Whether or not they believe the WT explanation does not matter, as it is at least a WT admission that they did join on as an NGO.

BTW, welcome to the board!

Jst2laws

9

I went to a funeral today

by Joyzabel in

my first outside of the jwdub world and i was amazed at the emotions i experienced.

about 50 people were there to support the family in their time of grief.

there was a graveside service for a baby that had died this week.

jst2laws

Joy,

Nice experience. Wish I could have been there. I was wondering where you were this morning.

Jst2laws

41

Is The Governing Body EVIL?

by jst2laws in

i am going to stick my neck out and postulate that the gb is not evil .

nor is the watchtower society as a whole.

i'm sorry this got a little long but please accept the challenge and show me wrong.

jst2laws

I feel a little like a pork sausage at a Jewish picnic. But the posts have been stimulating and educational, not only for myself but I hope for JW lurkers.

I have to accept the reality that I cannot respond to every post but would like to thank everyone for their contribution to the discussion.

Path and Scully, You both made excellent points.
Sleepy, quite a set of questions. Much to think about.

Farkel

You have probably noticed my concession to Alan concerning the changes that took place in the GB. As you say it has “been twenty-two years (since about 1980) since the GD became intractable hardliners”.

Most of what you say I agree with. You said:

I would only agree with Ray if he was referring to all the WTS hierarchy UP TO the GB. But with them, and without Freddie's meddling, the buck DOES stop with them.

While the “buck” stops with them I suspect these guys are still followers. Not to back up and sound as if to excuse them, they seem to believe their own propaganda that what was printed in the past was from God. To change what is in print must be scary to men who are surely aware of their own ineptitude. For that reason I believe that most changes come from either pressure from Legal or pressure from us “apostates”. An example of the later is the May 1 wt reversal on “naos”, where the great crowd are serving. Amazingly it took almost 20 years as you say/

Enjoyed the discussion, Fark.

Jst2laws

41

Is The Governing Body EVIL?

by jst2laws in

i am going to stick my neck out and postulate that the gb is not evil .

nor is the watchtower society as a whole.

i'm sorry this got a little long but please accept the challenge and show me wrong.

jst2laws

Dear Dungbeetle,

This discussion seems to be stirring a lot of emotion. I should have anticipated that. Please remember I am not defending these men or justifying their actions.

jst2laws, Ray Franz feelings toward HIS Governing Body are irrelevant, since HIS was 1983 and YOUR comment is directed at today's

I believe they are accountable even if they are ‘followers of followers’.
As to evil, please see my concession to AlanF above.

The rest of your post seemed to be personal and emotional. I fear I have resurrected ill feelings, for which I apologize. Lets relax and stay friends.

Jst2laws

41

Is The Governing Body EVIL?

by jst2laws in

i am going to stick my neck out and postulate that the gb is not evil .

nor is the watchtower society as a whole.

i'm sorry this got a little long but please accept the challenge and show me wrong.

jst2laws

Alan,

Thank you for you kind response. I believe you have brought us back to the heart of the problem, how do we define evil.

I think that most people would define an evil person as someone who would harm others knowingly, period. It doesn't matter if someone has something to gain from harming others, either personally or in a larger sense -- harming others knowingly is still evil.

That seems to be the definition most dictionaries prefer. If we accept this, however we have to accept the reality that follows:

You're perfectly right that all of us will sometimes fit the definition of evil, But the question of really being "evil" boils down to how often and how intensely someone commits acts of evil ……A person who ignores his conscience in this way is certainly an evil person, because he had it in his power to stop the commission of evil, or to separate himself from it, but did not -- for selfish reasons.

Completely agree. As I have said above I believe there are evil individuals in the org who are evil by any definition.

The point you make that impresses me was that the men composing the GB Franz knew has changed. Since the 1970’s the GB as a whole I believe has conspired to harm.

His (Ray’s) ouster from the GB marked a turning point in Society history. After that, WTS leaders became much more hardheaded and unforgiving. They were jealous of their positions and power, and they did everything they could to preserve their authority even at the cost of stomping on the rights and heads of individual JWs.

I think you are right here. They have changed. When you and I were in NY those of the GB I knew were pretty much normal guys in there positions because they had been there a long time and Knorr trusted them to co-operate. They just went along. When they started to assert themselves in the mid 70’s to the point of bucking Pappy’s authority they seem to have interred a new phase that gradually lead in later years to ruthless self preservation. If this is the case I concede most of the members of the GB, if not all, are truly evil.

However, I’m not sure we should include the issue of conscience. Is it not possible that some of these men “conspired” and “caused harm” fully believing they were protecting “God’s Name”? If that is true then some may actually have acted in good conscience. Yet, this does not relieve them of responsibility.

You finally touched on the responsibility of those who claim to speak for God. In my view this is far and away the most condemnatory of Watchtower lunacies. I'll leave further comments for another time because I'm beat from a long day at work.

Again, completely agree. Thanks for your thoughts, Alan

Jst2laws

41

Is The Governing Body EVIL?

by jst2laws in

i am going to stick my neck out and postulate that the gb is not evil .

nor is the watchtower society as a whole.

i'm sorry this got a little long but please accept the challenge and show me wrong.

jst2laws

Welcome ChiChi and lastcall,

Good to hear from new ones.

ChiChi,

Ray Franz doesn't condem them because he would still be one of them if things didn't happen as they did.I sensed a sadness and longing in his books over the loss of position and his buddies on the GB.

You may have overlooked that the scandal that took place in Bethel that ultimately resulted in Ray Franz’s dismissal from the GB and Bethel started while he and his wife were on a three month leave of absence. They were looking for a place to go as Ray had already decided to resign the GB and leave Bethel. I personally did not detect a sense of “loss of position” but did sense an intense loss of friends and forsaking the fantasy that we have all given up (most of us anyway)

Lastcall,

The sad truth is people suffer and even die for their religion. That is not unique to JW's. But if we are pissed off at the lives that we lived in the past, we really only have one place to look. The Mirror. If we were a minor child when we had a miserable JW life, then look in the mirror, then look at Mom and Dad.

Interesting.

Jst2laws