Posts by debator

172

Top 10 reasons why JWs don't have the truth - please contribute

by oldlightnewshite in

i thought it would be an interesting exercise to ask everybody on here what their 'top 10 reasons why jws don't have the truth' actually were.

maybe we can see some correlating views/patterns/ideas that may help us de-programme the newbies that come on this site.

if eventually most people have an outstanding gripe/concern it'll help everybody understand the ex-jw mindset a little better.

debator

Hi designs

Time and dates please I notice you are throwing in some prophecy stuff still in there. I do not debate refinements have been made it is part of being in God's religion and biblically predicted and ongoing but recent MAJOR changes? I am not going to do your work for you. You say these are recent major changes please put them on the table.

Hi Isaac

Deut 18 in it's entirity backs witnesses up since it is talking about false prophets claiming to be inspired (speaking words from God himself) it is the blueprint for inspired words that become part of the Bible. You are deconstructing the bible in trying to say Deut 18 is about lesser claims.

Witnesses are false prophets only in the eyes of people that totally ignore what the bible actually says concerning false prophets. I always find this argument one of the most dishonest from ex-Jws. Some arguments like the UN one are just desperation but this one is frankly dishonest.

131

Can we trust this website? (About the subject in which Jehovah's Witnesses were a NGO)

by possible-san in

can we trust this website?.

watchtower as a united nations ngo - critical look at the conspiracy theory.

http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/.

debator

Black-coffee

The bible clearly shows the people will be crying out "peace and security" to no avail

NWT 1 thes 5: 3 Whenever it is that they are saying: “Peace and security!” then sudden destruction is to be instantly upon them just as the pang of distress upon a pregnant woman; and they will by no means escape.

Jeremiah 33:6
" 'Nevertheless, I will bring health and healing to it; I will heal my people and will let them enjoy abundant peace and security.

It is a written prediction that they want what only God can offer "peace and security" (The UN goals are Peace and security) but in denying Jehovah they cannot attain it. It is not a sin to want Peace itself but who we looked too to attain it.

By you weird reasoning Jehovah is sinning by offering peace and security because it is the same goal as the UN. Trying to change the goalposts to making sharing the same ideals such as peace as the sin is just a bazaar argument on your part.

131

Can we trust this website? (About the subject in which Jehovah's Witnesses were a NGO)

by possible-san in

can we trust this website?.

watchtower as a united nations ngo - critical look at the conspiracy theory.

http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/.

debator

So the best you can say is that share and support are the same word when they patently are not?

1994+ = share

Since Jehovah's witnesses Look to the hope of of a peaceful world secure under Jehovah and the UN also work towards peace but say men can acheive while they both SHARE the same goal of Peace neither support each others point on how it is acheived.

2005+ = Support

Which is really asking that those that join the UN DPI to actually support not just the UN trying to acheive peace but doing it through men rather than Jehovah which is their Goal.

This is a massive difference.

Biblically Paul had no problem using his Roman Citizenship (the UN of his day) and then Rome was about conquering and world domination under Caesar a man seen as a god. According to you he would be a hypocrite by your nit-picking.

Like I said your desperation really shows on this subject and It is you digging the hole if you resort to pretending different words mean the same thing.

131

Can we trust this website? (About the subject in which Jehovah's Witnesses were a NGO)

by possible-san in

can we trust this website?.

watchtower as a united nations ngo - critical look at the conspiracy theory.

http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/.

debator

No proof just dubious accusation I see.

Nowhere on those forms is there anything which would compromise the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses. If there was something there then we could read it on those forms ourselves — as some critics would expect — but instead there is simply nothing there.

http://www.thirdwitness.com/UN/www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/scans/1991application.html

the forms themselves if you are brave enough to look!

However, some critics claim that the Society is being deliberately misleading. They claim that NGOs had to renew their status with the DPI each year and re-apply.

No, the argument is not valid. In fact, the critics are being deliberately misleading and are hoping you won't notice. If we actually take the time to read through the 2005 “Accreditation Form”, yes the very document they present as “proof” that the Society renewed it's application each year, what do we find? We find that is says this:

“In 2002 we instituted the review process for NGOs associated with DPI.”

That's right — the renewal process where the NGO must reapply and sign a form each year was not started until the year after the Watchtower Society resigned as an NGO! This very fact is stated in the document apostates use a “proof” that the Society “renewed their application each year”! Evidently, the apostates just hope you will believe what they say and won't notice what's written in the text of the document. Amazing.

This brochure acts as an introduction to new NGOs and stipulates the requirements of being an NGO.

“What are the Criteria for NGOs to become associated with DPI? The NGO must support and respect the principles of the Charter of the UN and have a clear mission statement that is consistent with those principles;”

Apostates often use the above quote, and repeat it endlessly as “proof” of the Watchtower Society's support of the UN. Yet this appears in the 2005 brochure, do we know if it appears in the older brochures? We already stated that we have a copy of the 1994 brochure, so does that phrase appear there? No, not at all. On the contrary, in the 1994 brochure we find that the above statement has replaced the following original statement:

“Who is eligible for association with the DPI? Non-profit organizations which: share the ideals of the UN charter;”

Notice the difference. In 2005, NGOs must support the principles of the UN Charter. In 1994, the NGOs must simply share the same ideals.

Just a few snippets of real info instead of false accusations.

172

Top 10 reasons why JWs don't have the truth - please contribute

by oldlightnewshite in

i thought it would be an interesting exercise to ask everybody on here what their 'top 10 reasons why jws don't have the truth' actually were.

maybe we can see some correlating views/patterns/ideas that may help us de-programme the newbies that come on this site.

if eventually most people have an outstanding gripe/concern it'll help everybody understand the ex-jw mindset a little better.

debator

Hi Designs

Major changes? recent years speak only of refinements on biblical prophecy understanding aka "generation". So you will have to be more explicit?

Hi olin

1/ yes Jesus did predict false prophets and using bible Chronology was not what makes then false prophets but...

Matthew 24:24
For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.

You can't just take the words "false prophet" and fill in your own opinion of what makes them a false prophet! Jesus said they would apparently perform "signs and miracles" that deceive. Witnesses do not fill this requirement. Jesus's words simply don't back your claim.

2/ Jesus gave the shepherds a certain autonomy of shepherding which allows them to apply Bible principle to situations that haven't happened yet.

Matthew 16:19
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

The apostles openly used this to make decisions on gentiles and circumcism. This does not end until Jesus comes in his power. but all shepherds are held accountable for their shepherding.

Matthew 24:44-46 (New International Version)

44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

45 "Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns.

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.

3/ Three is simply a weird charge "slandering God" by saying he will bring destruction on unrighteous mankind? You are familiar with the flood story when God destroyed all people, families besides Noah and his family? Jesus admits himself that it will be a noah's flood type of event.

Matthew 24:37-39 (New International Version)

37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

169

Rich Man and Lazarus

by Ding in

i have never understood the watchtower's explanation of the rich man and lazarus story jesus told in luke 16. of course, they don't believe jesus is talking about what happens in an "afterlife" after people die.. but from the watchtower's point of view:.

1. who are the five brothers?.

2. why can't lazarus go witness to them?

debator

Hi mary

you ignored the scripture from psalms saying Jesus's soul would not be left in "Sheol" but you jump to the witch of endor. lets look at it.

1 sam 28:11 Then the woman asked, "Whom shall I bring up for you?"
"Bring up Samuel," he said.

Bring up?

1 sam 28:15 Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"

but just to make this certain

1 Samuel 28:13

13 The king said to her, "Do not be afraid; but what do you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I see a divine being coming up out of the earth."

She saw a divine being coming out of the EARTH.

Was samuel confused did he say bring up instead of come down? and why is he old?

1 sam 28:14 "What does he look like?" he asked.
"An old man wearing a robe is coming up," she said.

So was She lying, mistaken? was samuel confused? are people old in heaven?

The transfiguration is a vision simply because Jesus was not a king yet at that point it is showing a time when he will be. It is a similar vision to John's revelation vision. but if you don't believe me I refer you to Jesus on this.

(Matthew 17:9) . . .And as they were descending from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying: “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is raised up from the dead. . .

131

Can we trust this website? (About the subject in which Jehovah's Witnesses were a NGO)

by possible-san in

can we trust this website?.

watchtower as a united nations ngo - critical look at the conspiracy theory.

http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/.

debator

Hi coffee-black

Are you willing to read the alternate explanation?

http://www.thirdwitness.com/UN/www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/

Personally since I know Paul used his Roman Citizenship openly to further the Christian cause, talking to Caesar Agrippa. I do not find accessing the Department of information of the UN to help the preaching work (Rome equivalent of now) for information as a wrongdoing.

People are saying they do not need to be a NGO DPI to access the information, so then why did they join in the first place? The fact is if it was that easy they simply wouldn't have joined. They had already been used the library for about 40 years without being an NGO DPI it was then they were told they needed to do this to keep access (then they only needed to have the same goals without supporting the UN. Witnesses do have the same goal of peace but see Jehovah as man's salvation through his son, not the UN). From what I believe some access is allowed outside of this but it isn't complete access at all.

I am only repeating myself now. This is an exaggerated wrongdoing that isn't even a wrongdoing. Unless you are willing to condemn Paul for using his Roman Citizenship under the same warped principle you are applying only to witnesses.

It is also dishonest to only use the appelation "NGO" since being an NGO for the DPI (Department of information) is not the same type of involved NGO for the UN itself.

131

Can we trust this website? (About the subject in which Jehovah's Witnesses were a NGO)

by possible-san in

can we trust this website?.

watchtower as a united nations ngo - critical look at the conspiracy theory.

http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/.

debator

Hi Possible-san

If something actually happened you will get racial memories as with the flood spanning countries and oceans, literally many different versions of the same event. You cannot just say one came from the other especially when the People involved had very little contact with each other, if any.

People ask extraordinary proof from the bible which they do not expect from other historical documents taken as historical fact. People approach the bible with scepticism which constantly has to be reset when the bible is upheld.

People doubted King David was real until a archaeolgy un-earthed a stone naming him.

http://www.biblehistory.net/newsletter/king_david.htm

People look at all these different versions and try and find similarities but ultimately they are only guessing since they weren't there at the time to verify which was the source and which copied or if they a simply alternate descriptions of the same event.

Scepticism is it's own enemy since you can no longer see the truth in anything.

Titus 1:15
To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.

42

An Overlooked Detail of Armageddon

by cameo-d in

why has it been passed down to us that the word 'armageddon' refers to meggido?

who came up with that and stamped and approved it as a translation?

i am not sure if jws buy into that same interpretation...so maybe you all can fill me in.. .

debator

Hi cameo-d

Thats my point it is strongly symbolic language and things and places are used symbolically including Armageddon/megiddo.

169

Rich Man and Lazarus

by Ding in

i have never understood the watchtower's explanation of the rich man and lazarus story jesus told in luke 16. of course, they don't believe jesus is talking about what happens in an "afterlife" after people die.. but from the watchtower's point of view:.

1. who are the five brothers?.

2. why can't lazarus go witness to them?

debator

Hi mary (btw my name is debator)

You are offering a mixture of your doctrine and assumptions on wording as a refute and getting very circular in the process. Both the words soul and spirit are used to mean "life" in places. The position that a "floaty bit" of yourself goes off to heaven is not scripturally supported and cannot be offered as prove without scriptural back-up. You cannot say Jesus means more than "sleep" because we know a "floaty bit" is already in heaven.

For anyone that looks at Jesus's wording and says "today you will be with me in paradise" is what he meant, has to deal with the two problems. If Jesus apparently didn't die and is in heaven and his body is in earth but dead if he then after 3 days is resurrected as a physical body we have two Jesus's! do they just join up and how can the physical Jesus once resurrected goto heaven? When only the souls apparently goto heaven? If we are all alive and happy in a paradise in heaven why the need for a physical resurrection of our rotting earthly bodies?

I am always suspicious of anyone offering after-life as an option because the bible is very clear that death is death. You end up saying like psacramento that a person is dead "conscious of nothing" yet a floaty part of him is a alive and conscious of everything you are just creating oxymorons.

Jesus says the dead are asleep he doesn't say that any part of them is alive in paradise. Then also why would he rip a little girl and lazarus away from this paradise just to resurrect them to earth and death again? Then say these especially lazarus's are an example of the resurrection to come.

By running with a false idea ignoring the obvious simple idea you end up with a huge fictional mound that really starts to contradict the bible.

The Minute the bible says "the soul can die" this bit of fiction was refuted. It incompatible with a soul which is apparently an immortal bit of ourselves.

God has never said we couldn't die only Satan offered this as an option.

The one you quote from saying Sheol is the grave is digging a hole for himself. By accepting Sheol is "grave" rather than "hell" how can he then say Souls goto "different places" he has just shot himself in the foot. According to the bible all those due for resurrection are in Sheol including the soul. It doesn't then talk of getting various souls from different places to join them too. in fact the following scripture prophetic towards Jesus is a real problem.

Psalm 16:10 (King James Version)

10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

The soul is in hell/grave/sheol not heaven and gets resurrected after 3 days.

I think it is very weak doctrine that needs to literalise a figurative parable or the "witch of endor" piece which says Samuel "comes up from the ground" not from a floaty heavenly place. A close look at the witch of endor shows a support that a Whole person dies and is resurrected, whether it is seen as a false samuel or the real one.