Posts by debator

16

Say Pledge of Allegiance or Go To Jail

by cameo-d in

a lawyer was cited for criminal contempt of court because he did not say the pledge of allegiance.

he stood up but was silent.

apparently he had done this before and the judge was put out with him.

debator

Hi cameo-d

Thank you the article was interesting though it doesn't mention his motives for refusing.

Someone replied at the bottom ironically, that this is a judge that doesn't know the law.

16

Say Pledge of Allegiance or Go To Jail

by cameo-d in

a lawyer was cited for criminal contempt of court because he did not say the pledge of allegiance.

he stood up but was silent.

apparently he had done this before and the judge was put out with him.

debator

Hi Cameo-d

Is this a current story? If so it is sad that it has come to this.

The current version of the Pledge of Allegiance reads: [ 1 ]

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

According to the United States Flag Code, the Pledge "should be rendered by standing at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. When not in uniform men should remove any non-religious headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should remain silent, face the flag, and render the military salute".

An early version of the salute, adopted in 1892, was known as the Bellamy salute. It started with the hand outstretched toward the flag, palm down, and ended with the palm up. Because of the similarity between the Bellamy salute and the Nazi salute, developed later, President Franklin D. Roosevelt instituted the hand-over-the-heart gesture as the salute to be rendered by civilians during the Pledge of Allegiance and the national anthem in the United States, instead of the Bellamy salute. Removal of the Bellamy salute occurred on December 22, 1942, when Congress amended the Flag Code language first passed into law on June 22, 1942. [ 11 ]

Requiring or promoting of the Pledge on the part of the government has drawn criticism and legal challenges on several grounds.

One objection [ 17 ] states that a democratic republic built on freedom of dissent should not require its citizens to pledge allegiance to it, and that the First Amendment to the United States Constitution protects one's right to refrain from speaking or standing (also a form of speech). [ 10 ]

In 2006, in the Florida case Frazier v. Alexandre, No. 05-81142 (S.D. Fla. May 31, 2006), a federal district court in Florida ruled that a 1942 state law requiring students to stand and recite the Pledge of Allegiance violates the First and Fourteenth Amendments of the U.S. Constitution. [ 24 ]

In 2009, a Montgomery County, Maryland, teacher had school police remove a 13-year-old who refused to say the Pledge of Allegiance in the classroom. The student's mother, assisted by the American Civil Liberties Union of Maryland, sought an apology from the teacher, as state law and the school's student handbook both prohibit students from being forced to recite the Pledge.

I'm surprised The judge was able to get away with this. If it is a recent event I hope the man appeals it.

172

Top 10 reasons why JWs don't have the truth - please contribute

by oldlightnewshite in

i thought it would be an interesting exercise to ask everybody on here what their 'top 10 reasons why jws don't have the truth' actually were.

maybe we can see some correlating views/patterns/ideas that may help us de-programme the newbies that come on this site.

if eventually most people have an outstanding gripe/concern it'll help everybody understand the ex-jw mindset a little better.

debator

Hi oldlight

Claiming to be a prophet does not make you a false prophet. Fulfilling specific Bible requirements for false prophecy makes you a false prophet.

I reiterate Jehovah's witnesses have never done any of the Biblical requirements to be false prophets. Getting already written biblical prophecy or chronology wrong (in your opinion) is not a requirement.

Interesting you had contact with Russelites.

They originally out-numbered those that became Jehovah witnesses by two thirds and still retain many similar teachings but in looking at the two groups today what do we find?

Russelites still only number in the thousands clinging to the teachings and adulation of one man alone and Jehovah's witnesses have grown into millions, a world-wide fully acknowledge religion known for preaching Jehovah's kingdom message (rather than any man shepherding them) in every country as per biblical requirements.

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Of the both which is the rudderless ship?

172

Top 10 reasons why JWs don't have the truth - please contribute

by oldlightnewshite in

i thought it would be an interesting exercise to ask everybody on here what their 'top 10 reasons why jws don't have the truth' actually were.

maybe we can see some correlating views/patterns/ideas that may help us de-programme the newbies that come on this site.

if eventually most people have an outstanding gripe/concern it'll help everybody understand the ex-jw mindset a little better.

debator

HI wobble and inbetween.

I have debated False prophets on a number of occasions on this site.

The requirements have to be biblical! not personal opinion Inbetween. Accusations that they are false prophets and dishonestly quoting one scripture from a whole chapter deut 18 as proof, Wobble, to avoid the context is very dishonest.

Deuteronomy 18:18-22

18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."

21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by Jehovah ?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of Jehovah does not take place or come true, that is a message Jehovah has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

This is the acknowledged blueprint for knowing if a prophets words are inspired of God the actual "words spoken by Jehovah" This is how we know that books where to be part of the Bible it is also a prophecy concerning Jesus who would be able to tell us his fathers words directly.

Witnesses have never claimed the ability to speak words directly from Jehovah, to be inspired! therefore they do not qualify as false prophets by the very words of this chapter.

69

The Watchtower is now the world's largest magazine!

by life is to short in

jw
friends

newsmaxs magazine just published an article that the watchtower is the most read magazine out there it evens surpasses time.. i have never heard of newmaxs but i just was emailed this and thought you might find it interesting.

i am sorry i do not know how to give the link so i am cutting and pasting.

if someone can do the link it would be great.

debator

Thank you for the article

I like many Witnesses enjoy reading both the watchtower and awake. I have especially enjoyed the change in recent years to a watchtower study magazine particulariy for the Sunday meetings which has led to deeper articles on specific Bible doctrine.

I appreciate that I am a lone voice on this forum on this but worldwide I know there are many, many others like myself that do enjoy reading the Watchtower articles. In a world that needs Magazines and newspapers to reflect shallow issues like what shoes their favourite actor wears etc or who won X-factor etc Watchtowers are a deep and refreshing spiritual encouragement.

86

Some christmas spirit, WT style!

by bohm in

jw
friends

well, i know its a bit self-serving since i allready posted this in jwfacts thread http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/199939/1/watchtower-images-required, but i think its quite funny and things have been kind of serious around here for the past couple of weeks.. it seem to me that when jahs chanel have desided (im kidding, they has been told) the one and true god really hate christmas and will kill you in nasty ways if you go ahead and celebrate it, it provide a pretty compelling case for not celebrating christmas.

but the governing body can make an even stronger case than that: not only will jesus cry and clice you up if you celebrate christmas, you will also have a really bad time.

wow!.

debator

Christimas is a current Pagan celebration now! And we as Christians do not do them. We can all have family occasions without needing the Christmas tag.

Also from my experience that picture is quite accurate of office Christmas parties where a cheap, fake, odd-shaped miniture tree is usually a requirement.

131

Can we trust this website? (About the subject in which Jehovah's Witnesses were a NGO)

by possible-san in

can we trust this website?.

watchtower as a united nations ngo - critical look at the conspiracy theory.

http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/.

debator

Hi Possible-san

I refer you to my earlier reply.

My name is debator and I try to reply to all those who ask me questions. If they use different names for me then I will likely miss their replies. So It is upto them to ask me directly using my name as I respectfully use yours Possible-san.

172

Top 10 reasons why JWs don't have the truth - please contribute

by oldlightnewshite in

i thought it would be an interesting exercise to ask everybody on here what their 'top 10 reasons why jws don't have the truth' actually were.

maybe we can see some correlating views/patterns/ideas that may help us de-programme the newbies that come on this site.

if eventually most people have an outstanding gripe/concern it'll help everybody understand the ex-jw mindset a little better.

debator

Hi coffee-black

We are not debating the requirements to be a prophet but the requirements to be false prophets and the Bible simply says they have to claim inspiration, signs, miracles, anti-christs etc The witnesses have claimed none of these.

Again the Bible is specific for the requirements of both and trying to muddy the waters by saying that just claiming to be a prophet can make you a false prophet is ridiculous.

To be a false prophet you have to show specific Bible written requirements for this and the witnesses have shown none of them.

Hi Jimmy

Things only have to be in the Bible once! There isn't a "how many times" option for believing various biblical doctrines. Take "born Again" this actually only appears in the Bible once, among others.

and actually the faithful and discreet servant/manager/slave appears twice. in matt and Luke.

Luke 12:41-43 (New International Version)

41 Peter asked, "Lord, are you telling this parable to us, or to everyone?"

42 The Lord answered, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? 43 It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns.

Matthew 24:44-46 (New International Version)

44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

45 "Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns.

Prophecy interpreting is notoriously difficult since it is the only time we have to look outside the Bible to the world around us for fulfillment and there isn't one single scripture that says getting it wrong condemns you! in fact we are cautioned to keep looking and testing it so as to be more accurate.

131

Can we trust this website? (About the subject in which Jehovah's Witnesses were a NGO)

by possible-san in

can we trust this website?.

watchtower as a united nations ngo - critical look at the conspiracy theory.

http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/.

debator

Hi Possible-san

Unless you have any further discussion on actual forum topics I see no reason to talk further. I do not feed ad-hominen attacks they are simply distraction techniques, including trying to get me to be various past posters.

Thank you for your earlier replies on the topic at hand.

131

Can we trust this website? (About the subject in which Jehovah's Witnesses were a NGO)

by possible-san in

can we trust this website?.

watchtower as a united nations ngo - critical look at the conspiracy theory.

http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/.

debator

Hi black-coffee

Since The UN itself does not consider NGO DPI's part of the UN why do you?

On the contrary DPI NGOs are specifically told by the UN itself that:

“association of NGOs with the DPI does not constitute their incorporation into the United Nations system”

According to You the UN is lying here.

In the United Nations system, there are NGOs who are associated with the Economic and Social Council (ECOSOC), and there are also NGOs associated with the Department of Public Information (DPI). The Watchtower Society was of the latter kind — associated with the DPI.

“For an NGO to be recognized by the United Nations, however, there are requirements, and even two statuses for which an NGO might apply. The DPI status is under the authority of the U.N. Department of Public Information (UNDPI), which controls U.N. archives and research facilities...

“The other status for which the NGOs may apply is ECOSOC (Economic and Social Council) status. The U.N. Website says that to obtain ECOSOC standing an NGO must prove that its work is directly relevant to U.N. goals. With ECOSOC standing an NGO may enter into a formal consultative relationship with access to officials of U.N. member states and must provide useful or special information to the U.N. Economic and Social Council...”

This is exactly what apostates are accusing the Watchtower Society of doing. Yet, this is not a description of the type of NGO the Watchtower Society was, but it is a description of the other type of NGO — that associated with the Economic and Social Council (ECOSOC).

the 1994 NGO brochure stated as a perk that:

“For NGOs associated with DPI, the United Nations provides: ... use of the Dag Hammarskjold Library.”