Posts by debator

86

Some christmas spirit, WT style!

by bohm in

jw
friends

well, i know its a bit self-serving since i allready posted this in jwfacts thread http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/199939/1/watchtower-images-required, but i think its quite funny and things have been kind of serious around here for the past couple of weeks.. it seem to me that when jahs chanel have desided (im kidding, they has been told) the one and true god really hate christmas and will kill you in nasty ways if you go ahead and celebrate it, it provide a pretty compelling case for not celebrating christmas.

but the governing body can make an even stronger case than that: not only will jesus cry and clice you up if you celebrate christmas, you will also have a really bad time.

wow!.

debator

Hi wingcommander

It's a pity you didn't present all this "Evidence" to the Jews and first century Christians that despite seeing pagans celebrating Birthdays around them didn't feel these scriptures allowed for celebrating them unlike you.

BTW col 2:16 is a reference to Jewish festivals not pagans ones and in simply allowing Jewish Christians the personal choice of continuing Jewish festivals if they wanted too. While showing they no longer held the same importance so Gentile Christians where not required to start observing Jewish festivals. It was never seen as a licence to jump into Pagan celebrations.

Angels celebrating Jesus's actual Birth itself as an excuse to pick an entirely different day for his Birthday and celebrate this annually? When clearly the Christians after reading the Gospels did not feel so inclined to do the same. Why didn't we get the date of his Birth from the no less than four Gospels written about him?

Using out-of-context Scriptures to provide loopholes to do what you want is just dishonest

Jesus didn't celebrate Birthdays so I don't!

86

Some christmas spirit, WT style!

by bohm in

jw
friends

well, i know its a bit self-serving since i allready posted this in jwfacts thread http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/199939/1/watchtower-images-required, but i think its quite funny and things have been kind of serious around here for the past couple of weeks.. it seem to me that when jahs chanel have desided (im kidding, they has been told) the one and true god really hate christmas and will kill you in nasty ways if you go ahead and celebrate it, it provide a pretty compelling case for not celebrating christmas.

but the governing body can make an even stronger case than that: not only will jesus cry and clice you up if you celebrate christmas, you will also have a really bad time.

wow!.

debator

Hi chalam

Are you saying Jesus was born on December the 25th?

Secondly the Bible records two birthday celebrations one by an egyptian pharoah the other by Herod under the influence of roman customs. Birthday celebrating by the nations was clearly well known to both Jews and Christians so what did they think of celebrating birthdays???

Although many who profess Christ celebrate birthdays, did you know that birthdays were simply not celebrated by those in the early church? Interestingly, there is no hint in the Bible or early writings that Jesus, the apostles, or any true Christians ever celebrated birthdays.

No early religious/church writing from the second century that I have seen (and I have read most that are available) seems to endorse (or even suggest) the celebration of birthdays by any who professed Christ.

Early christians simply didn't celebrate birthdays or Christmas (Jesus's birthday) It is a tradition drawn from the Romans.

Although he was not part of the Church of God, the writings of the early third century Catholic theologian Origen of Alexandria show that, even that late, Orthodox Catholics were against the celebration of birthdays. The Catholic Encyclopedia states:

It is interesting to note that while the New Testament is clear about the specific time of certain holy days such as Passover (Matthew 26:17-20) and Pentecost (Acts 2:1), it never mentions the date, nor even the precise month, of Jesus' birth (see Matthew 1 and Luke 1;2:1-20). Nor does it ever specifically endorse the celebration of birthdays. Not does it ever give the date (with either a solar or lunar calendar reference) for any one being born.

http://www.cogwriter.com/birthdays.htm

The first century Jewish historian Josephus noted that Jewish families did not celebrate birthdays:

Nay, indeed, the law does not permit us to make festivals at the birth of our children, and thereby afford occasion of drinking to excess (Josephus. Translated by W. Whiston. Against Apion, Book II, Chapter 26. Extracted from Josephus Complete Works, Kregel Publications, Grand Rapids (MI), 14th printing, 1977, p. 632).

172

Top 10 reasons why JWs don't have the truth - please contribute

by oldlightnewshite in

i thought it would be an interesting exercise to ask everybody on here what their 'top 10 reasons why jws don't have the truth' actually were.

maybe we can see some correlating views/patterns/ideas that may help us de-programme the newbies that come on this site.

if eventually most people have an outstanding gripe/concern it'll help everybody understand the ex-jw mindset a little better.

debator

Hi wobble

your Quote is saying God is inspired and sending his spirit to witnesses. Spirit has many uses not just to convey God's word under inspiration. your simply reaching with that quote. Here are some actual Quotes dealing with inspiration/ability to do prophecies, linfallibility.

1880s: “We have not the gift of prophecy.” [5]

1890s: Nor would we have our writings reverenced or regarded as infallible, or on a par with the holy Scriptures. The most we claim or have ever claimed for our teachings is that they are what we believe to be harmonious interpretations of the divine Word, in harmony with the spirit of the truth. And we still urge, as in the past, that each reader study the subjects we present in the light of the Scriptures, proving all things by the Scriptures, accepting what they see to be thus approved, and rejecting all else. It is to this end, to enable the student to trace the subject in the divinely inspired Record, that we so freely intersperse both quotations and citations of the Scriptures upon which to build. [6]

1900s: It is not our intention to enter upon the role of prophet to any degree, but merely to give below what seems to us rather likely to be the trend of events—giving also the reasons for our expectations.

[7]

Someone may ask, Do you, then, claim infallibility and that every sentence appearing in "The Watch Tower" publications is stated with absolute correctness? Assuredly we make no such claim and have never made such a claim. What motive can our opponents have in so charging against us? Are they not seeking to set up a falsehood to give themselves excuse for making attacks and to endeavor to pervert the judgments of others?

[8]

1910s: However, we should not denounce those who in a proper spirit express their dissent in respect to the date mentioned [1914] and what may there be expected . . . We must admit that there are possibilities of our having made a mistake in respect to the chronology, even though we do not see where any mistake has been made in calculating the seven times of the Gentiles as expiring about October 1, 1914. [9]

1920s: Many students have made the grievous mistake of thinking that God has inspired men to interpret prophecy. The holy prophets of the Old Testament were inspired by Jehovah to write as his power moved upon them. The writers of the New Testament were clothed with certain power and authority to write as the Lord directed them. However, since the days of the apostles no man on earth has been inspired to write prophecy, nor has any man been inspired to interpret prophecy.

[10]

1930s: We are not a prophet; we merely believe that we have come to the place where the Gentile times have ended [11]

1940s: This pouring out of God's spirit upon the flesh of all his faithful anointed witnesses does not mean those now serving as Jehovah's Witnesses are inspired. It does not mean that the writings in this magazine The Watchtower are inspired and infallible and without mistakes. It does not mean that the president of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society is inspired and infallible, although enemies falsely charge us with believing so.... But we confess with the Scriptures that the day of such inspiration passed long before 1870, as the apostle Paul showed it would. . . . Inspired speaking and writing passed away with the last of the twelve apostles, by whom the gifts of the spirit were imparted to others. Yet God is still able to teach and lead us. While confessing no inspiration for today for anyone on earth, we do have the privilege of praying God for more of his holy spirit and for his guidance of us by the bestowal of his spirit through Jesus Christ.

[12]

1950s: The Watchtower does not claim to be inspired in its utterances, nor is it dogmatic. It invites careful and critical examination of its contents in the light of the Scriptures.

[13]

1970s: In this regard, however, it must be observed that this “faithful and discreet slave” was never inspired, never perfect. Those writings by certain members of the “slave” class that came to form the Christian part of God ’s Word were inspired and infallible, but that is not true of other writings since. Things published were not perfect in the days of Charles Taze Russell, first president of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society; nor were they perfect in the days of J. F. Rutherford, the succeeding president. The increasing light on God’s Word as well as the facts of history have repeatedly required that adjustments of one kind or another be made down to the very present time. [16]

1980s: It is not claimed that the explanations in this publication are infallible. Like Joseph of old, we say: “Do not interpretations belong to God?” (Genesis 40:8) At the same time, however, we firmly believe that the explanations set forth herein harmonize with the Bible in its entirety, showing how remarkably divine prophecy has been fulfilled in the world events of our catastrophic times. [17]

1990s: Those who make up the one true Christian organization today do not have angelic revelations or divine inspiration. But they do have the inspired Holy Scriptures, which contain revelations of God ’s thinking and will. As an organization and individually, they must accept the Bible as divine truth, study it carefully, and let it work in them.

[18]

2000s: Although the slave class is defined as “faithful and discreet,” Jesus did not say that it would be infallible. This group of faithful anointed brothers still consists of imperfect Christians. Even with the best of intentions, they can be mistaken, as such men sometimes were in the first century.

[19]

172

Top 10 reasons why JWs don't have the truth - please contribute

by oldlightnewshite in

i thought it would be an interesting exercise to ask everybody on here what their 'top 10 reasons why jws don't have the truth' actually were.

maybe we can see some correlating views/patterns/ideas that may help us de-programme the newbies that come on this site.

if eventually most people have an outstanding gripe/concern it'll help everybody understand the ex-jw mindset a little better.

debator

Hi Joey Jo Jo

Thank you for your question unfortunately this isn't a correct question.

Firstly the original manuscripts also say "a god" specifically the sahidic Coptic

http://nwtandcoptic.blogspot.com/

The Sahidic Coptic was translated in the 3rd century, about a hundred years before the Trinity became official church doctrine. The Sahidic Coptic calls the Word in John 1:1c "a god," not "god" or "the god."

And in the original Greek John 1:1c lacks the definite Article which means translation can be a god but not G-od which presumes a definite where there is none.

Trinity doctrine demands that John 1:1c translates John 1:1 G-od rather than "a god" so the incorrect "G-od" has been promulgated in a religion overun by trinitarian doctrine. But a few translations throughout the centuries have not bowed to this doctrinal pressure including ours.

The Word was a god.” (The New Testament in an Improved Version)

Interlineary Word for Word English Translation-Emphatic Diaglott, "In a beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and a god was the Word."

**Edward Harwood, H KAINH DIAQHKH. London, 1776, 2 vols; 2nd ed. 1784, 2 vols. 1768,"and was himself a divine person"

Newcome, 1808, "and the word was a god"

La Bible du Centenaire, L’Evangile selon Jean, by Maurice Goguel,1928: “and the Word was a divine being.”

John Samuel Thompson, The Montessoran; or The Gospel History According to the Four Evangelists, Baltimore; published by the translator, 1829, "the Logos was a god"

Goodspeed's An American Translation, 1939, "the Word was divine"

Moffatt's The Bible, 1972, "the Logos was divine"

International English Bible-Extreme New Testament, 2001, "the Word was God*[ftn. or Deity, Divine, which is a better translation, because the Greek definite article is not present before this Greek word]

Reijnier Rooleeuw, M.D. -The New Testament of Our Lord Jesus Christ, translated from the Greek, 1694, "and the Word was a god"

Hermann Heinfetter, A Literal Translation of the New Testament,1863, [A]s a god the Command was"

Abner Kneeland-The New Testament in Greek and English, 1822, "The Word was a God"

Robert Young, LL.D. (Concise Commentary on the Holy Bible [Grand Rapids: Baker, n.d.], 54). 1885,
"[A]nd a God (i.e. a Divine Being) was the Word"

Belsham N.T. 1809 “the Word was a god”

Leicester Ambrose, The Final Theology, Volume 1, New York, New York; M.B. Sawyer and Company, 1879, "And the logos was a god"

Lant Carpenter, LL.D (in Unitarianism in the Gospels [London: C. Stower, 1809], 156). "a God"

George William Horner, The Coptic Version of the New Testament, 1911, [A]nd (a) God was the word"

James L. Tomanec, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, 1958, [T]he Word was a God"

172

Top 10 reasons why JWs don't have the truth - please contribute

by oldlightnewshite in

i thought it would be an interesting exercise to ask everybody on here what their 'top 10 reasons why jws don't have the truth' actually were.

maybe we can see some correlating views/patterns/ideas that may help us de-programme the newbies that come on this site.

if eventually most people have an outstanding gripe/concern it'll help everybody understand the ex-jw mindset a little better.

debator

Hi coffee-black

Ehh Jesus did! in the first century when he set up the apostles as shepherds and they under inspiration set up the congregations and gave instructions on how the Christian congregation was to have shepherds and overseers as time goes on. Appointing men from among themselves. From that point we are meant to have shepherds/overseers from among ourselves as Christians.

172

Top 10 reasons why JWs don't have the truth - please contribute

by oldlightnewshite in

i thought it would be an interesting exercise to ask everybody on here what their 'top 10 reasons why jws don't have the truth' actually were.

maybe we can see some correlating views/patterns/ideas that may help us de-programme the newbies that come on this site.

if eventually most people have an outstanding gripe/concern it'll help everybody understand the ex-jw mindset a little better.

debator

Hi chalam

Nice Sciptures some from the same chapter but they do not change that "Born Again" only appears once. I am not denying it is a true Biblical point but certain groups woefully misused it's true meaning. Making it something men can claim/do for themselves when it is only something God can give to a certain few.

172

Top 10 reasons why JWs don't have the truth - please contribute

by oldlightnewshite in

i thought it would be an interesting exercise to ask everybody on here what their 'top 10 reasons why jws don't have the truth' actually were.

maybe we can see some correlating views/patterns/ideas that may help us de-programme the newbies that come on this site.

if eventually most people have an outstanding gripe/concern it'll help everybody understand the ex-jw mindset a little better.

debator

Throughout the Bible you get many instances of Prophets speaking many propecies under Inspiration but other times clearly words from their own opinion like when Nathan tells David he will build the temple and got rebuked by Jehovah on this.

Saying being a prophet = inspired. Means you are saying everything they utter is inspired as God's prophets. Yet this is patently not the case biblically inspiration comes only at certain times for specific reasons.

And like I said earlier clearly many prophets never got inspired utterances aka Miriam and Aaron.

172

Top 10 reasons why JWs don't have the truth - please contribute

by oldlightnewshite in

i thought it would be an interesting exercise to ask everybody on here what their 'top 10 reasons why jws don't have the truth' actually were.

maybe we can see some correlating views/patterns/ideas that may help us de-programme the newbies that come on this site.

if eventually most people have an outstanding gripe/concern it'll help everybody understand the ex-jw mindset a little better.

debator

Hi coffee-black

For your perusal a reprint of deut 18 for you to look over.Note the prophet has to claim to be able to speak the very "words of Jehovah"

Deuteronomy 18:18-22

18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."

21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by Jehovah ?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of Jehovah does not take place or come true, that is a message Jehovah has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

This is the acknowledged blueprint for knowing if a particular prophets words are inspired of God the actual "words spoken by Jehovah" This is how we know that books where to be part of the Bible it is also a prophecy concerning Jesus who would be able to tell us his fathers words directly.

Witnesses have never claimed the ability to speak words directly from Jehovah, to be inspired! therefore they do not qualify as false prophets by the very words of this chapter.

172

Top 10 reasons why JWs don't have the truth - please contribute

by oldlightnewshite in

i thought it would be an interesting exercise to ask everybody on here what their 'top 10 reasons why jws don't have the truth' actually were.

maybe we can see some correlating views/patterns/ideas that may help us de-programme the newbies that come on this site.

if eventually most people have an outstanding gripe/concern it'll help everybody understand the ex-jw mindset a little better.

debator

Hi Coffee-black

I am not a fan of loaded language.

I refer you to my reply to wobble above that Deut 18 does not support your claim that witnesses are false prophets.

Witnesses Have never claimed inspiration and have openly denied it. Trying to use wording/terms other than this to try and construct some kind of claim for inspiration which they have denied already is dishonest on your part.

While the Bible shows that inspiration is given to prophets, it does not claim that all prophets are inspired aka Miriam and Aaron did not have inspired utterances. So claiming to be a prophet does not equate to claiming to be inspired so it is an irrelevent point.

1/ saying you are a prophet is not a claim for inspiration!

2/ God's channel of communication is not a claim for inspiration! you are simply saying it is in your own opinion.

3/ Saying you are God's only people is a claim all Christianity makes and that you have to become one to be closer to God. By your reasoning on this, every Christian is a false prophet. Including Paul who told Agrippa to become a Christian.

4/ They have never claimed to make inspired utterances or prophecies ever! Using already written Bible prophecy and chronology aka armageddon, "times, time and half" is not the same as saying you are inspired.

You are imputing to Witness a position that we do not claim for ourselves and then refuting that position, instead of our actual position. This is really nothing but a dishonest debating trick.

172

Top 10 reasons why JWs don't have the truth - please contribute

by oldlightnewshite in

i thought it would be an interesting exercise to ask everybody on here what their 'top 10 reasons why jws don't have the truth' actually were.

maybe we can see some correlating views/patterns/ideas that may help us de-programme the newbies that come on this site.

if eventually most people have an outstanding gripe/concern it'll help everybody understand the ex-jw mindset a little better.

debator

Hi Designs

I do know my Religion's history, Christianity is nearly 2000 years old and as Jews even longer before that. But going back to what the early Christians, Pre-christian jews and what the Bible actually teaches concerning Jehovah and his son meant getting rid of 1700 year old enforced man-made doctrines brought in to appease greek philosophy mad, Roman God, worshiping people.

When it highlighted changes how far back are you willing to go? The majority of People who call themselves Christians follow a trinitarian God and Doctrinal framework only fully realised as a teaching in the third century. It's first incarnation was "Father, Son and wisdom" which got changed to "holy spirit". Hellfire and immortal soul are also later changes from the original bible teachings.

Witnesses have gone back to original bible teachings that got obscured by man-made doctrines which where enforced on pain of death.

It took time and lots of biblical and spirit refinement for early bible-students that became Jehovah's witnesses to truly throw-off accumulated centuries of false teachings and get back to pure bible truths (as taught by Jesus his Apostles and early Christians) but they succeeded.