LOOOL Good point- I'm working off of what they deny though lol - obviously no witness would admit that everyone but them will die at armageddon, so they say "its in jehovah's hands to judge" or some crap.
PLEASE don't shoot me lol- I still have to go out!
confliction
JoinedPosts by confliction
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10
Service is mathematically and logically pointless.
by confliction inso, i was thinking today about the point of service, other than the proclamations the king and his kingdom (bs :p ) and i kind of had an epiphany... but i'm sure somebody has already thought of this.
first, for people who never hear the 'truth', or never come to a true accurate understanding of it, they will most likely have odds in favor of them surviving into the paradise earth to get a second chance.
let's say the odds are 99% survival.. .
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confliction
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Service is mathematically and logically pointless.
by confliction inso, i was thinking today about the point of service, other than the proclamations the king and his kingdom (bs :p ) and i kind of had an epiphany... but i'm sure somebody has already thought of this.
first, for people who never hear the 'truth', or never come to a true accurate understanding of it, they will most likely have odds in favor of them surviving into the paradise earth to get a second chance.
let's say the odds are 99% survival.. .
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confliction
So, I was thinking today about the point of service, other than the proclamations the king and his kingdom (bs :p ) and I kind of had an epiphany... but I'm sure somebody has already thought of this. Let me explain.
First, for people who never hear the 'truth', or never come to a true accurate understanding of it, they will most likely have odds in favor of them surviving into the paradise earth to get a second chance. Let's say the odds are 99% survival.On the flipside, by attempting to preach to people and teach them your "truth", you put it in their hands to make a decision. By doing so, their odds are lessened to a less appealing... you could say 50%.
So, by not sharing your "truth" with others, it seems that you could save more lives than trying to speak and lessen their chances of survival with knowledge. The old addage "what you don't know won't hurt you" comes to mind.
Of course, my mother said that "jesus commanded us to preach the word", and while that could be misapplied today by the society to pass out their literature and "truth", you could consider it a sacrifice on your part- saving countless lives, while in the process of dying because of disobeying a command. Giving up your life for all others.
On the other hand, your speaking to others while knowing the above reasoning just shows a selfishness on your part, for YOU want to attain to YOUR prize of everlasting life, rather than possibly save countless people the world over by SACRIFICING your own life.
As an added bonus, you might be found as a good person for doing so, and survive ANYWAYS.
To shuttup or not to shuttup... Thoughts? -
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Help with irrefutable arguments- creating dissonance
by confliction inhello- i'm arguing with my parents now... well, call it debating.
i'm trying to give them a question they'll actually think about- something that will make them want to do more research.
a question (or questions), that if right, will make them reconsider whether they are in the "truth".... .
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confliction
Well I appreciate that you have assumed that I have severed all ties with the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses ®, I, in fact have NOT. I have been born into, and raised within this religion, and I well know not just the teachings, but also implied, or rather unspoken rules.
And you are right in noticing cases of unfair coercion. It takes relatively little biblical knowledge to be baptized, and begin advertising the Watchtower and Awake magazines, or other books like the bible teach book. What I see in the bible teach is more of a preparation of rules, or programming, if you will; to set one up for passing questions for baptism. Furthermore, children born into the religion rarely have an easy choice regarding making their own life decisions and conclusions, when influence by a cultic, group mentality.
It would seem that more insight and study into, not only the bible, but examining historical documents pertaining to biblical chronology and so forth should also be important to come to an "Accurate knowlegde" of the real truth. Relatively very few in the congregation realize, nor take this step to further their knowledge. By stopping to take time to prioritize looking deeper into the word of God, they are looked upon as a weaker individual in the congregation, because they have not taken steps to advance in the congregation. It seems that hierarchy is a determining factor in how much you love jehovah- learning for yourself and then teaching others is not enough. You must do it with the society's books, the society's magazines, and the society's brochures, whether you see things in them that are incorrect or not. Eventually, if your study wants to progress in the truth, you will have to convince them to give up their king james bible because "ours is much more accurate", not telling them that it was translated by men who had no bacground in the actual languages it was translated from, except brother Franz, who only knew one of the two.
So you say that you don't need to be a scholar, yet you also state, frankly, that our society is uninspired? So our bible could have many issues within it... is that why many people who are trained in those languages to translate, don't even approve of our rendition of the original texts?
Or is it because every educated biblical scholar in the world except Jehovah's Witnesses is controlled by satan, and are out to get us?
We spend more of our time in bethel hammering out law cases and legalistically explaining the bible to fit our agenda, rather than sitting down for a minute to actually examine our own doctrine. Have you looked into the trinity doctrine yourself, at least to see why so many people feel they understand it? I went door to door only saying what things like the Trinity brochure had to say about the trinity, making it appear more confusing than it actually was. But when you look at our translation, it looks like important scriptures that normally would have supported the trinity were purposely manipulated otherwise to support the preixisting idea of a singular deity. I don't care if some scriptures do support the trinitarian doctrine or not, but you do not add to the bible what isn't there, under any circumstances, whether under the guise of good motive or bad. -
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Help with irrefutable arguments- creating dissonance
by confliction inhello- i'm arguing with my parents now... well, call it debating.
i'm trying to give them a question they'll actually think about- something that will make them want to do more research.
a question (or questions), that if right, will make them reconsider whether they are in the "truth".... .
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confliction
djeggnog: I see what you are trying to do here, but there is a problem with it.
First, off, if you are currently part of the Organization, and as assigned by the organization, are a baptized and so-called ordained Minister, then you well know that you are mixing in company with what you yourself would define as apostates. You know that what you are doing is what the Organization defines as a sin, and this sing is almost equal to that of fornication. The organization, has, on multiple occasions told witnesses not to debate with apostates, yet you yourself are disobeying that order. Keep that in mind.Secondly, in your first comment, basically what you implied by the illustration, was that the organization just looks wrong, for the time being, because there are people saying it is. You then imply that there is no evidence for this, and that soon we will all be proven wrong in our assumptions via "exoneration". I presume that this exoneration is in the form of armageddon, correct?
Well, the organization now defines as a generation those 'touched' by the truth. But if you examine the REAL definition of the english, and original word generation, as used in the referenced scripture in the book of matthew, which states that this is a literal word for a generation whose gap usually around 30 - 33 years, then that means that only those that were around 33 years old, or younger could be counted among this "generation". Also, generation implies a group of people within the same range of age. By saying that this generation shall not pass until the end, Jesus implies that the majority of the people within that age range would not die before the end. Most, if not all of those people are dead.
I know of nobody that has actually seen Russell in person, nor many- if any- who have seen and heard the talks as far back as the 1920's and 30's.To legalistically stretch the definition of an english word- ignoring the definition of the actual word as in the original texts (yes, I HAVE researched the word in multiple interlinear translations, and checked the meaning of the word in BOTH languages)- is nothing less than stretching the truth of said word. Besides that, the new world translation has on multiple occasions separated what it meant by using the plural, "generations", rather than the singular. Pleas stop giving irrelevant and overcomplicated explanations in your defense of what you call the truth- it just shows an attempt to elude others to try to convince them whatever you say must be right because you give the pretense of insight.
Also, have you ever wondered why the Organization has more qualified law students than it does bible scholars? Something to think about... -
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Recomend movies for ex JWs?
by highdose ini would be interested, these might be inspiring movies or maybe movies that we were never allowed to watch as jws?.
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confliction
How about......
.....ALL OF THEM!
Lol, but seriously, I like American Beauty- it's... a different perspective on things.
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Is it even possible to prove the existence of free will? Certainly it is assumed, but that hardly presents a 'proof'.
by gubberningbody inwithout "free will" , there can be no evil, if by evil we mean an entity has the ability to undertand what good is, and then freely chooses its opposite.. that so, then what?.
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confliction
It's interesting to think about this- I've spent many of times wondering if everything around us is nothing more than a physics playground, and how we may only be under the illusory impression that we have true freedom of will.
It would seem that by current scientific laws, our four (some say 5?) dimensions are the only ones that we have, and this is what makes up our physical world. If this is correct than all physical particles are just in an spectacular ballay of the physical forces- nothing more.
But, something I am looking forward to, is the studies revealed by the Large Hadron Collider, aka LHC. Through their scientific approach at analyzing in never previously accomplished detail, one of the things they are wanting to see is if our physical particles are in any way influence by another dimension- call it the dimension of "free will", if you want. By analyzing the data from the LHC, it is expected to see a so-called "glimpse" of this other dimension, that can be traced by the studying of the after-effects of particular collision.
I'm not a scientist and I probably have my facts wrong anyways lol- but you get the drift I hope... -
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Help with irrefutable arguments- creating dissonance
by confliction inhello- i'm arguing with my parents now... well, call it debating.
i'm trying to give them a question they'll actually think about- something that will make them want to do more research.
a question (or questions), that if right, will make them reconsider whether they are in the "truth".... .
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confliction
I want to thank all of you for both your advice (some of it, quite insensitive...) and your warnings.
As for questioning parents, I understand that I have a lot to risk in doing this, but my issue is not losing my family...
I am currently evaluating what the right course is.
It's a bit of a russian roulette game, but the difference is that this is theoretically calculable and manipulable towards my favor.
My parent's, from an honest standpoint, don't have many more years left on theirs side. My father is getting close to 70, and my
mother has just started in her sixties.I, as any good-hearted person, want them to die happy. But on the other side, (and understanding
that I now see myself as agnostic) this is the only life I have, and it would be a shame to waste half of it to something so vain.
It really hurts- on one side, I want my folks to understand the truth about the "truth"... but on the other side, I don't want them
to die without having some form of comfort.
I feel tempted not to say this but I feel that it is necessary - but I am frankly more intelligent and more understanding when it
comes to analyzing things from a logical standpoint than they. I don't believe in demons, I don't believe that God, if he exists, is actually
interacting with people and guiding them with any true purpose.
This is my opinion that I am entitled to, mind you, and I ask that you respect that.
The fact is, my parents just don't have the mental capacity to grasp what I understand; what I know. And because of this, I know that even if
I were to get them to realize this was all a lie, they would come to the conclusions that any and every one else has been through. That is, withdrawal of a cultic mindset. I can't be happy knowing that I took away this future my parents thought they had for over 35 years...
I'm sure you can contemplate how that may feel.
So I'm really just going through a debate right now about how far I really want to take this, in regards to my parents.
The reason I want the argument, though, is that I want my parents to understand my decisions. I don't want to leave them in the dark, thinking
that if I leave it's because of a girl, or some temptation like drugs (which they believe the 'world' is all about, of course).
They can't see a life without the bible- they can't understand that a person devoid of god can still have morals.
That, just because you doubt the existence of a deity, that you can't still siphon the bits of wisdom the bible does have to offer, and apply those
in your life.Nevertheless, the entire ordeal is something to truly ponder over and meditate on.
Steve2: I can see the wisdom in what you're saying, but if you were ever a witness then you'll know ever situation when leaving is different, and much more complex than anyone but you yourself could possibly comprehend and evaluate.
As much as I would love to go commando and just 'cut my losses', I need more time to compare other options. As much as I would love to just fade out of this nightmare, I know that odds are that eventually I will have to face the reality of losing people I love. It's rumor that elders must now contact people that fade at all costs, and define the line, so to speak (This, coming from LuciousVBogeymanProd on youtube...).
I think people are already beginning to avoid me, and I see the elders watching me more than usual... it hurts to see what's in store. And I can't do a damn thing about it...
...god.I'll keep keep peeps updated though- keep in touch you all.
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Help with irrefutable arguments- creating dissonance
by confliction inhello- i'm arguing with my parents now... well, call it debating.
i'm trying to give them a question they'll actually think about- something that will make them want to do more research.
a question (or questions), that if right, will make them reconsider whether they are in the "truth".... .
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confliction
jamiebowers: I will be careful- It's very difficult though; I'm just so frustrated at how they have been so... brainwashed that they circumvent logic. Whenver I do come up with something they can't refute they either give an answer that they KNOW doesn't sound right, or they just skip it all together, just ignoring it.
Thanks for looking out for me. I really do need to keep my head together.
mentallyfree: "True, there have been those in times past who predicted an ‘end to the world,’ even announcing a specific date .... Yet, nothing happened. The ‘end’ did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying. Why? What was missing? ... Missing from such
people were God’s truths and the evidence that he was guiding and using them" (Awake, 10-8-68, p. 23)
Perfect; this is exactly the stuff that we need- an irrefutable form of conflicting logic, in print. I can work from there- I need something that I can firmly back and report as research STRAIGHT from the watchtower. Since they only listen to what the watchtower says, it seems I can only argue from that avenue. Doing this will help subdue apprehension for fear of "apostate influence" and "independent thinking". It's almost as if my parents were programmed to reply with these buzz-words lol- they specifically mention these phrases, repeatedly! -
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Help with irrefutable arguments- creating dissonance
by confliction inhello- i'm arguing with my parents now... well, call it debating.
i'm trying to give them a question they'll actually think about- something that will make them want to do more research.
a question (or questions), that if right, will make them reconsider whether they are in the "truth".... .
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confliction
Hello- I'm arguing with my parents now... well, call it debating. I'm trying to give them a question they'll actually think about- something that will make them WANT to do more research. A question (or questions), that if right, will make them reconsider whether they are in the "truth"...
I'm trying to get them to ask themselves to think harder. Mainly, I brought out the point of how can you actually prove that WE have the holy spirit? They always come up with an excuse, but I don't think they're getting the point, because every answer they come up with just digs them into a hole.For example, they said "Well who else has unity like our brothers and sisters? We could only have this with the help of the holy spirit". I said that they couldn't say that, because scientologists and mormons have that same "unity" ( I didn't want to say "cult").
They then said, "Well what about the fruitages of the spirit?". I, again referencing to Mormons and some other "religions" like us (more cults) weren't that much different- they just didn't teach the same stuff.Then my dad told me how "We're the only ones who use god's name. The bible even says that his people would use his name and be his witnesses."
The problem with that, as I told him, is that we named OURSELVES, and it's waaay after the fact. It's like me saying that my next conversation will be with a guy named bob, and then a random guy changes his name to bob to fit the bill.Now they're encouraging me to do "research", which involves only learning things through WT publications. I tried pointing out the flaw in that, but because I always stopped short of calling WT liars, I couldn't get the logic across that it IS possible they could be wrong.
I told my father that the only real proof that they're backed by Jesus is because they said so, and that technically ANYONE could do that.
So yeah, the arguments I'm trying to use just aren't getting through- I need something that will... fester.To all brothers / sisters who were what you would call "Strong" in the truth (a.k.a. elders, M.S., pioneers), what was the first doubt that made you start questioning more and more?
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Rutherford and Russel were SPIN DOCTORS?!
by confliction inin public relations, spin is a form of propaganda, achieved through providing an interpretation of an event or campaign to persuade public opinion in favor or against a certain organization or public figure.
while traditional public relations may also rely on creative presentation of the facts, "spin" often, though not always, implies disingenuous, deceptive and/or highly manipulative tactics.[1].
politicians are often accused by their opponents of claiming to be honest and seek the truth while using spin tactics to manipulate public opinion.. because of the frequent association between "spin" and press conferences (especially government press conferences), the room in which these take place is sometimes described as a spin room.
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confliction
At Mythbuster: Nah, I was just being funny- I was searching some stuff about decision making psychology and cognitive analysis and I found this- sounds kind of like it narrates Rutherford....