One time I put Jan's head on a nude photo of Yul Brynner. We called him Jan Brynner. :-) Hmmm. I wonder if I can find it. I did it years ago--about three computers ago, too. If I manage to locate it, I'll post it. I know Jan would love it.
jukief
JoinedPosts by jukief
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46
Apostate Swimsuit Calendar
by SlayerLayer inwe would like to take this opportunity to recognize those that were just too ugly to make it into aour calendar.
we thank you for your audition photos, but we're afraid that you would hurt our business.
again thank you for auditioning.
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175
Do you want the real truth or not?
by Jason inon this website there seems to be so many lies and so little actual truth.
is this supposed to be a place to get answers or confuse the hell out of truth seekers?
well, for you seekers out there, if you find the truth on this site it'll be a major fluke.
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jukief
So, Jason, tell me. Do you also belong to the Flat Earth Society?
:-)
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POLL - Elders vs Molesters
by Amazing ini wish to conduct a legitimate poll, or at least as legitimate as it can get on this forum.
unless you are or were a jw, please do not respond or make comments.
please simply give an answer, without extended comments.
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jukief
Four.
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93
Position on College Changed?
by Maximus inseveral have made outright statements and others have suggested that the society's negative position on higher education has changed.
'the society does not discourage higher education where i live.
' worse, 'apostates have made it all up--the society has never discouraged education.
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jukief
I hear you, Black Man. I think your desciption of what you went through as a black teenager is similar to the treatment women/girls got. I graduated in 1972, and I knew damned well I had only two options--pioneer or get married. It was unthinkable that I would either go to college or get a little place of my own and work full time. My father was an elder, and I didn't even question it. I hated service and didn't want to pioneer, so I ended up getting married at 17 to the first guy I dated (big mistake).
The funny thing is, a couple of years after I got married my best friend's father gave a talk at the circuit assembly where he said if you had the circumstances to pioneer and you weren't pioneering, you couldn't expect to survive Armageddon. So guess what? I ended up pioneering after all. :-( What a nightmare that was. Luckily I got pregnant and used morning sickness as an excuse to quit. :-)
I got divorced in 1985, moved to another city with my two young sons, and got my bachelor's degree. It's never too late.
JukieF
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16
Be afraid...be very afraid...
by fodeja infrom http://www.greatcrowd.com/159ubb/forum22/html/000167.html.
he gave us some statistics about how much the occurrences of random violence have escalated over the recent years, and it's terrible.
something like 99% of us will be exposed to, or become a victim of a violent crime.
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jukief
Hey, handsome.
It's not just me that's scary. I take my ferocious cairn terrier with me, too.
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Rutherfordian Science
by AlanF inthe wise man j. f. rutherford wrote about the "cause of the flood" in his 1927 book creation (pp.
here he informed us of "jehovah's" view of the scientific "annular flood theory" of one isaac newton vail, which the watchtower society had been promoting for decades:.
annular means that which has the form of a ring, or ring-shaped.
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jukief
Sorry, Fred. I have that spot reserved for *my* poster of my hero --Freddy Franz.
Moo
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16
Be afraid...be very afraid...
by fodeja infrom http://www.greatcrowd.com/159ubb/forum22/html/000167.html.
he gave us some statistics about how much the occurrences of random violence have escalated over the recent years, and it's terrible.
something like 99% of us will be exposed to, or become a victim of a violent crime.
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jukief
Ah, a security expert who gives seminars. Looks like he's trying to drum up some business by scaring people to death. :-)
Anyone who thinks crime is bad now should read Barbara Tuchman's "A Distant Mirror" about life in Europe in the middle ages!
I've lived on both coasts of the US and in Colorado, as well as Europe. I felt safe everywhere I lived. Sure, crime happens and people should exercise sensible caution, but there's no reason to live in fear. I still walk by myself after dark in our city and I feel perfectly safe.
Jukief
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23
Convention is over! (sigh of relief)
by biblexaminer inwhat made me the most ill at the district convention.
the public talk had to be it.
although the drama was a close second.
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jukief
We have an interesting situation in my family at the moment. My brother is a diehard elder who's in training for the circuit work. His only child--a boy--applied to Bethel a while back and is expecting his invitation any day. (My brother started shunning my sister and me more than 10 years ago, even though we had never been disciplined in any way. I haven't seen my nephew since he was about six years old.)
When I heard my nephew was going to Bethel, I was heartbroken. But I've had second thoughts about that lately. After all, he'll be at Bethel during a time of great upheaval, and I'm sure he'll be pivvy to information (gossip) that his father wouldn't have heard. I wonder what effect all of this will have on his faith and--in the long run--his father's. It could be very interesting, indeed. It might turn out that his going to Bethel is the best thing that could have happened to our family. :-)
JukieF
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9
Baptism, Legalism and JWs
by jukief injehovah's witnesses like to think that their organization.
jehovah god himself.
church and christ, the church and the gospel.
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jukief
So, Jan, is it so hard to believe that I wrote that instead of Alan? :-))
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9
Baptism, Legalism and JWs
by jukief injehovah's witnesses like to think that their organization.
jehovah god himself.
church and christ, the church and the gospel.
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jukief
An Aspect of the Legalism of Jehovah's Witnesses
Jehovah's Witnesses like to think that their organization
goes entirely by the Bible, and that because of following
the Bible they are not tied to following every "jot and
tittle" of some "Law." They contrast themselves with the
first-century Pharisees who were indeed so concerned.This essay shows that in the matter of the relation
between the individual Jehovah's Witness and "the
congregation," the Watchtower Society has made and enforces
a number of legalistic rules. Furthermore, these rules are
not clearly stated to people who become Jehovah's Witnesses.
Instead, the prospective convert is given a sanitized and
idealized view, so that if he gets into difficulty with the
congregation the real rules come as a shock.We will examine these matters by looking at the baptismal
vows Jehovah's Witnesses have made when joining the
religion. Until 1985, these vows were seen as a dedication
of the individual to his God, whereas in 1985 the Society
changed them into an agreement to follow the rules and
regulations of the Watchtower Society.According to statements published by the Watchtower
Society, Christians are not dedicated to an organization.
From the October 1, 1966 Watchtower, pp. 603-4:Jehovah is the giver of life. "For with you is the
source of life." (Ps. 36:9) We cannot keep
everlasting life in view without staying close to
Jehovah, the source of life.... This is what we mean
when we dedicate our lives to Jehovah. We do not
dedicate ourselves to a religion, nor to a man, nor to
an organization. No, we dedicated ourselves to the
Supreme Sovereign of the Universe, our Creator,
Jehovah God himself. This makes dedication a very
personal relationship between us and Jehovah.The January 15, 1970 Watchtower, pp. 37-41, asked the
question, "Which Comes First -- Your Church or God?"
Speaking mainly to Catholics and Protestants, the article
said, in part:With some, God comes first and their church is merely
a means used to worship him. With others, their
church has become an end in itself, taking priority
over God and his Word, the Bible. Where do you
stand? In your own heart and mind, which comes first
-- your church or God?The article then described what the French weekly news
magazine, Le Nouvel Observateur, said about three
categories of believers:"The first man is the one who feels at ease within the
traditional structures of the Church; the second would
like to see some changes made in these structures; as
for the `third man,' he has left the Church, but
quietly, without making a fuss. He still believes in
the Gospel values, but he expects no more help from
the Church. He has quit, and the Church's problem has
ceased to interest him, once and for all."The article went on to say, under the sub-title
"Questions for the `First Man' ":The "first man" represents the believers who remain
faithful to their church out of loyalty to the
religion they were brought up to believe in. Their
attitude is: Right or wrong, it is my religion! Is
that the way you feel? If so, you are certainly a
loyal person. But to whom do you owe the greater
loyalty -- to your church, or to God? With so much
disbelief rife throughout the earth, you are to be
commended for maintaining your faith, but where should
your faith be placed -- in a religious organization,
or in God? Why do you go to church? Basically, is it
not because you believe in God? Do atheists go to
church? Is not the very purpose of churchgoing to
worship God and gain his approval? So if it became
clear that your church was not fulfilling its basic
purpose, where would your first duty lie?"But," you may reply, "how can one tell if one's
church is fulfilling its purpose?" Well, is your
church drawing more and more people to God and helping
them to serve him? Or are its best and most sincere
members disappointed, disillusioned and
disheartened?....The article next shows how certain practices merit God's
displeasure, and then says:Furthermore, to be pleasing to God, should not a
church teach the truth?.... "God is spirit, and those
who worship must worship in spirit and truth." -- John
4:21-24, JB.Notice that worship in "truth" is a must! It is
therefore impossible to worship God acceptably without
a deep love of the truth. The true Christian religion
must be founded on the truth, not on traditions,
creeds, dogmas and articles of faith that are often
hard to understand because they defy all the faculties
of reasoning with which God created us. Now what is
the Christian standard for measuring truth? Is it not
the Bible? So if there should prove to be
contradiction between the tenets of a church that
claims to be Christian and the plain statement of
truth found in the Holy Scriptures, which should come
first in your worship -- your church or God's Word,
the Bible? What will be your answer if you sincerely
desire to be "the kind of worshipper the Father
wants"?The next sub-title was "Reasoning Things Out with the
`Second Man' ", which said:The "second man" mentioned in the Nouvel Observateur
represents those Catholics and Protestants who stay
with their church because they do not know where else
to go. They have been taught that their church
represents God, and they do not want to turn away from
him. They disapprove of many church practices or
doctrines, but they hope to reform their church from
within.Typical of these are the 744 French Catholics who, in
November 1968, sent a long open letter to the pope.
In it they stated: "Today the Christian needs to live
in a `true' church . . . Therefore all that is false,
contrary to the Gospel and scandalous within the
Church today wounds the Christian." Then followed a
long list of grievances against the Catholic Church
and its current teachings and practices. Yet, toward
the end, these Catholics expressed their unconditional
adherence to their church by alluding to John 6:68 and
stating: "Who could we go to? In her [the Roman
Catholic Church] we find the One who has words of
eternal life."But can Christ dwell in a church where so much is
admittedly "false, contrary to the Gospel and
scandalous"? Did not the apostle Paul write: "What
participation hath justice with injustice? Or what
fellowship hath light with darkness? And what concord
hath Christ with Belial?"....Thus, honest Catholics and Protestants are beginning
to recognize the necessity of choosing between the
church and Christ, the church and the Gospel. What
about all you `second men,' who hope to reform your
church from within? Which comes first with you --
your church or God? Indeed, what is the church of
God? After the words quoted above, Paul wrote to
sincere anointed Christians: "For you are the temple
of the living God; as God saith: I will dwell in
them, and walk among them; and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people...."....What example did Paul himself set?.... Did Paul
remain within the traditional church, the Jews'
religion, and attempt to reform it from the inside?
No! He considered that the only way to worship and
serve God acceptably henceforth was to `go out from
among' the Pharisees and become a part of God's true
church which, at the time, was a small despised
sect....Consequently, if your church teaches and does things
that are contrary to the Bible and displeasing to God,
your duty as a Christian is clear: Imitate Paul and
`serve the Father and your God' within the true
religion which, not surprisingly, the churches often
"call a heresy."The final sub-title, "Reassuring News for the `Third
Man' " said:This brings us to the "third man," representing the
disillusioned who have ceased practicing their
religion altogether, yet still maintaining their
belief in God. Although this article is not written
primarily for them, since they have already chosen to
abandon the church systems of Christendom,
nevertheless we have some good news for them.The article then concludes with an invitation for the
`third man' to become one of Jehovah's Witnesses.While the Society has said that Christians do not
dedicate themselves to an organization, it tells Witnesses
that salvation does not come apart from the Watchtower
organization. For example, the March 1, 1979 Watchtower
stated (p. 18):Devoted Witnesses have kept their faith in Jehovah's
organization. They know which one of all
organizations on earth the Almighty God has used to
give the greatest witness to his name and kingdom in
all Christian history... Is there any cause for us to
lose faith in Jehovah's visible organization because
of mounting difficulties in this world? Those who
believe that Jehovah will never desert his faithful
witnesses answer, "Absolutely not!" In demonstration
of such faith, we will keep on sticking to it and
working with it without slacking the hand. Our
unwavering faith will be rewarded with victory and the
crown of life!In line with these sentiments, in 1985 the Society
changed the baptismal vows such that new Jehovah's Witnesses
dedicated themselves, not only to God as had been done for a
century before, but to the Watchtower Society itself. This
is evident from the baptismal vows published up through
1985:Baptismal questions from the August 1, 1966 Watchtower, p. 465:
(1) Have you recognized yourself before Jehovah God as
a sinner who needs salvation, and have you
acknowledged to him that this salvation proceeds from
him, the Father, through his Son Jesus Christ? (2) On the basis of this faith in God and in his
provision for salvation, have you dedicated yourself
unreservedly to God to do his will henceforth as he
reveals it to you through Jesus Christ and through the
Bible under the enlightening power of the holy spirit?Baptismal questions from the May 15, 1970 Watchtower, p. 309:
(1) Have you recognized yourself as a sinner and
needing salvation from Jehovah God? And have you
acknowledged that this salvation proceeds from him and
through his ransomer, Christ Jesus? (2) On the basis of this faith in God and in his
provision for redemption have you dedicated yourself
unreservedly to Jehovah God, to do his will henceforth
as that will is revealed to you through Christ Jesus
and through God's Word as his holy spirit makes it
plain?Baptismal questions from the May 1, 1973 Watchtower, p. 280:
(1) Have you repented of your sins and turned around,
recognizing yourself before Jehovah God as a condemned
sinner who needs salvation, and have you acknowledged
to him that this salvation proceeds from him, the
Father, through his Son Jesus Christ? (2) On the basis of this faith in God and in his
provision for salvation, have you dedicated yourself
unreservedly to God to do his will henceforth as he
reveals it to you through Jesus Christ and through the
Bible under the enlightening power of the holy spirit?The newest baptismal questions, from the June 1, 1985
Watchtower:On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have
you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to
Jehovah to do his will? Do you understand that your dedication and baptism
identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in
association with God's spirit-directed organization?Contrast these latest questions with the statements
above, from the October 1, 1966 Watchtower.Finally, compare these statements to those made in the
October 15, 1992 Watchtower, p. 19:So for the Christian, baptism following dedication
establishes an intimate relationship with Jehovah God,
his Son Jesus Christ, and the holy spirit... By recognizing God's authority, we draw close to him
and enter into a relationship with him... We become
God's property as his slaves, bought with the price of
Jesus Christ's ransom sacrifice... The apostle Paul
also told first-century Christians that they belonged
to Jesus Christ, not to any men who might have taken
the truth to them... Baptism in the name of the Son
implies recognizing this fact, accepting Jesus as "the
way and the truth and the life."... At the time of dedication and baptism, therefore, we
need to reflect prayerfully on what is involved in our
new relationship. It requires submission to the will
of God, demonstrated in the example and ransom
provision of Jesus Christ, to be carried out through
holy spirit as it directs all of God's servants in
love and unity worldwide.This last is a most unusual statement in that the
"faithful and discreet slave" is not mentioned as directing
the work. In any case, the Society has managed to get newer
members to, in effect, join a worldly club from which their
membership can be terminated at any time by the Society
(disfellowshipping) while at the same time convincing these
newcomers that they have only dedicated themselves to their
Creator. Can any actions be more devious?The fact that the Society changed the baptismal vows to
protect itself legally is shown by the letters that it sends
out to people who threaten with legal action for trying to
enforce on them what they thought was a dedication to
Jehovah alone. One such letter read:From the date of your baptisim and your joining the
organization of Jehovah's Witnesses, you professed the
Christian faith, agreed to adhere to the doctrine of
Jehovah's Witnesses and agreed to submit to the rules
and procedures of the ecclesiastical government of
Jehovah's Witnesses.Talk about legalism! It is obvious that a great many
people would never have become JWs in the first place if the
possible consequences to them were spelled out as above.To further show the Society's legalistic view of baptism,
here are some excerpts from a lengthy letter written in the
early 1990s by a Watchtower attorney, Philip Brumley, to a
person who questioned the Society's legal right to
disfellowship him:I represent Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New
York, Inc., the parent organization of the
congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses throughout the
United States. By means of your numerous letters and
telephone calls to this office, I have been informed
that your membership in the organizations of Jehovah's
Witnesses was terminated when you were disfellowshiped
from the English Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses,
[xyztown], Massachusetts. . . . The relationship between a congregation and its member
is consensual as to both parties. A congregation of
Jehovah's Witnesses is a voluntary association. Both
the member and the congregation have a right to
determine if they will remain united. The member has
the right to disassociate himself or herself from the
congregation. The congregation also has the right to
separate from a member if it is determined by an
ecclesiastical tribunal, which Jehovah's Witnesses
call a judicial committee, that a member is not
conducting his or her life according to the tenets of
the religion. A. If a member no longer wishes to be one of
Jehovah's Witnesses, then the member may disassociate
himself or herself from the congregation. The term
"disassociation" applies to the action taken by a
person who, although being a baptized member of the
congregation, repudiates his or her Christian standing
as such, rejecting the congregation and stating that
he or she no longer wants to be recognized or known as
one of Jehovah's Witnesses. A brief announcement
would be made to inform the congregation that the
person has voluntarily disassociated himself or
herself from the congregation. B. If a member is charged with wrongdoing and wishes
to continue to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses, then
such one should submit to the hearings of the judicial
committee. If charges of wrongdoing are brought to
the attention of the body of elders of one's
congregation, then they investigate the charges. If
it is established that there may be substance to the
charges and evidence is produced showing that a
serious sin actually may have been committed, the
congregation's body of elders will assign a judicial
committee, consisting usually of three elders, to
handle the matter. . . . II. APPLICABLE SECULAR LAW C. Relation Between the Congregations and its
members. It is axiomatic that the essence of the
relationship of a religious society with its members
is held by the courts to be the agreement of the
parties, and generally, a profession of faith,
adherence to the doctrine of the religious society and
submission to its government. 76 C.J.S. Religious
Societies 11 (1952). A party having voluntarily
assented to becoming a member of a congregation
thereby subjects himself or herself to the existing
rules and procedures of said congregation and cannot
deny their existence. All who unite themselves to
such a voluntary religious organization do so with the
implied consent to this government and are bound to
submit to it. . . . Since you did not disassociate yourself from the
organization, then under the law you gave implied
consent to its government, subjecting yourself to the
existing rules and procedures and being bound legally
to submit to it. The theocratic government of the
congregation to which you legally submitted includes
specifically the legal agency of Jehovah's Witnesses,
known as the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New
York, Inc., and all their duly appointed
representatives, including the elders of the
congregation with which you were associated. The
rules and procedures which you subjected yourself to
include those of the judicial committee arrangement
set forth in detail above. . . .Note that the above legalese says that once a person
joins the Witnesses, he has only two choices if he wants to
leave: disfellowshipping and disassociation. These two
choices are enforced by American law. However, even if the
Watchtower lawyer has correctly stated matters, he has
neglected the case of the child who gets baptized and
submits to "ecclesiastical law." By law minors cannot enter
into legally binding contracts. Therefore by law, people
who got baptized when they were children have a third
legally enforceable option when they leave: to simply
quit, without disassociating and without submitting to a
judicial committee, or "ecclesiastical tribunal." Of
course, the Society will not tell people about this.From the above extensive discussion by the Watchtower
attorney (the complete letter contained dozens of pages) it
is evident that people who become Jehovah's Witnesses are
not fully informed of the rules and obligations they will be
expected to obey. For example, a rank-and-file member is
expected to fully obey an elder, since elders are "duly
appointed representatives" of the Watchtower Society.The Society has given statements to the news media
indicating that if a person wants to leave the Witnesses,
all he has to do is quietly fade away and life will go on
unchanged. The above letter from Mr. Brumley proves that
these public statements are pure lies.From the material presented in this essay it should be
clear that the Jehovah's Witnesses parent organization, the
Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, is a thoroughly
legalistic, Pharasaic and deceptive organization. It
recruits members under false pretenses and bullies them into
remaining by deceptive, legalistic means. No one who wishes
to be a good Christian should tolerate these practices.AlanF