god not only condoned mass murder, he ordered it .
i notice that many people here have claimed that "god is not a murderer.
god does not condone or plan the brutal murder of children!
The point of the original post in this thread is that the God portrayed in the bible is into mass murder. I have seen a whole lot of squabbling but I haven't seen anyone refute this.
Whether one believes the bible is holy or not does not affect their ability to read. If anything I would think it would improve their objectivity.
I would be delighted to see some valiant believer explain to me how the bible doesn't portray as a murderous, venegful maniac.
Thanks in advance,
Julie
on tuesday, august 4, 2001 at 3:42.a.m.
mst, duane floyd checketts, 77 died in his sleep due to complications from pneumonia.
he is survived by his wife bette and two children, douglas checketts, patty smith, and 8 grandchildren.. duane, who was fondly called duke by everyone who knew him was born in farmington, utah on march 8, 1924. his father floyd, was one of 10 children raised in a tiny house built by his own mormon father who immigrated in the early 1860's from birmingham, england.
Doug,
I wish I had a brilliant bit of comfort to offer but I know that there is little comfort to be had in your situation. I send love and empathy to you my friend.
Julie
i 've found this one: .
w58 8/1 460 dawns a new era for the irish .
by watch tower missionary in eire.
Interesting post. I must say I think it is very wise of the Catholic Church to discourage bible reading. I know nothing swayed my opinion of religion like reading the bible. Once I saw the violence and small mindedness in there I knew it was all a crock of shit. Had I never looked into the bible I am sure I would be a devout Catholic today. It is easy for me to understand believers who are unfamiliar with the bible. They just don't know about the horrible things in there. It's the believers who know what is in there and still think it is the word of God that I can't understand. I mean, how sick is that?
Julie
premise: many who have read the bible over the centuries have accepted it as authoritatively from god, and have glossed over some glaring inconsistencies, contradictions, and shear nonsense.
some cultish groups have attempted to mimick the myths and twisted beliefs they have derived from the bible.
jehovah's witnesses are no exception to this.. this raises the questions: if the bible (as we know it) is from god, having his stamp of authorship and approval, then can we ever at some point raise serious questions about it?
Hi Amazing,
Good post. As I saw in this thread, this is a bible-thing really. The whole bible argument reminds me of what many a poor JW wrestles with: turn your back on the organization, you turn your back on God. Obviously this is nonsense. Could not the same be applied to the bible? Coming to terms with the reality of how incredibly un-Godlike the bible is doesn't necessarily mean you cannot believe in God any longer. It merely means you don't have to live in fear of the venegeful, spiteful and oh-so-angry biblegod.
As for the whole belief thing based on Jesus and the new testament teachings, I may have gone that way too if it weren't for all the talk of old testament stuff. The old testament is so violent and evil while the new testament is very contradictory and makes many claims that the old testament is "sacred". Toss in a few comments that some of the old teachings are in error and there you have it, nonsensical teachings.
Is there a God? Maybe. Did he/she have anything to do with the bible? Inconceivable.
Take care,
Julie
the strange world of the bible.
during my many years as a jehovah's witness my studies of the bible was extremely shallow.
the watchtower society was deluging us with magazines and books and the references to the bible you found there were just filtered through the watchtower propaganda machine.
Hi Norm,
Good post. I too have been marvelling at the bible and how many people can accept it, with all the horrors, as "God's word". I can only assume they haven't read it, really.
One of my favorite bible stories is in the 4th or 5th chapter of Judges. Where the woman hammers a tent spike through the temples of some guy's head. Soon after there is a little song singing the praises of her act and claiming she is holy among the women in the tent. That is some really sick shit.
Big picture-wise, doesn't it ever strike any believers as strange that the whole old testament is about the Jews slaughtering others with God's blessing, and then the new testament proclaims we are all God's people? Did God change his mind? Before Jesus came it was ok to slaughter anyone not a Jew but, suddenly, all that has changed.
Lastly it seems to me that the biggest losers in all of this is the Jews. They killed, raped, slaughtered etc. on command only to find that the promised messiah was sent for all, not just them. Also, here we are in the year 2001 and still the poor Jews are fighting for that wretched patch of desert that was promised to them. I guess some people never learn.
Take care Norm,
Julie
while it may seem absurd at first glance, and perhaps offensive, is it not feasible that humans under their own source of inspiration could compile a such a library?.
think of the language used in describing the prophecies and visions in the bible as we know it, and test whether or not you can apply the symbols and images used to a variety of settings, places in history, and recorded events?
if you think about nostradamus, celestine and many other so called "prophecies" that considered some, all or none of the bible, didn't those writings somehow satisfy the curiosities and spiritual needs of certain people?.
Hi U.R.,
Sorry I missed your meaning of Magna on referring to this forum, while I know the meaning of the word I guess it never occured to me to apply it here, to this forum.
As to the rest of the document, Magna Carta, isn't it interesting that, for all it's political impact at the time (and for time to come considering the re-issues etc.), it was likely written by a churchman (a most enlightened one at that)? I love the irony there.
Anyway, good point in your original post.
Julie
while it may seem absurd at first glance, and perhaps offensive, is it not feasible that humans under their own source of inspiration could compile a such a library?.
think of the language used in describing the prophecies and visions in the bible as we know it, and test whether or not you can apply the symbols and images used to a variety of settings, places in history, and recorded events?
if you think about nostradamus, celestine and many other so called "prophecies" that considered some, all or none of the bible, didn't those writings somehow satisfy the curiosities and spiritual needs of certain people?.
:Any thoughts from the MAGNA FORUM?
Hmmm, the Magna Forum I don't know but that reminds me of the Magna Carta. An 800 year old document that shows more enlightenment and foresight than any book of prophesy I know of. Unlike books of prophesy it provides solutions to Foreseeable difficulties and, in comparison to certain inspired books of instruction (i.e. the bible), it is far more reasonable and just (not to mention sane).
There are countless documents and other writings from throughout history that demonstrate reason, intelligence, civility and insight. It is ironic that they are never attributed to God as many ridiculous rantings are. I think this reflects the fact that it is all done by "man" and, unfortunately, it was hardly the Best and Brightest who put pen to paper and gave us the "holy writings" we have today. If only some of them had been a little more enlightened....less superstitious......more civilized.......*sigh*
Just my 2 cents--
Julie
while it may seem absurd at first glance, and perhaps offensive, is it not feasible that humans under their own source of inspiration could compile a such a library?.
think of the language used in describing the prophecies and visions in the bible as we know it, and test whether or not you can apply the symbols and images used to a variety of settings, places in history, and recorded events?
if you think about nostradamus, celestine and many other so called "prophecies" that considered some, all or none of the bible, didn't those writings somehow satisfy the curiosities and spiritual needs of certain people?.
oops
reading farkel's thoughts about being called names, and remembering my own discouragement about the same thing, and thinking about all the posts recently decrying the fighting and bad language, i'm curious to know how my "seeker" persona is perceived here.
i know i have fought with some, made friends with others, so how i am perceived will be varied.
i want to know it all, the good, the bad, the ugly.
Hey Seeker,
Words I would use to describe my old friend Seeker: intelligent, balanced, diplomatic, honest and compassionate. This is not intended to be an all inclusive list but it is a good summary. You are one swell guy Seeker.
Hope all is well with you,
Julie, who is off to play Pooh-sticks on the dock at the cottage
i notice that because the jw's point out flaws with the churches doctrines and beliefs that instead of fixing or repenting or solving the issues it's easier for church people to form a backlash whether it's honest or falacious in order to displace blame and smokescreen their own inadequacies.. you can not heal yourself by pointing out anothers wounds, you also can not solve your problems by displacing them instead of admiting and addressing them.. if a jw or anyone else points out the problem of abuse in the church then by pointing out an abuse in the jw elders does not solve the issues of the church abuses neither is it repentance as repentance should be.. if you can't discuss the bible and resons why you fall short and trasngress then by bringing up personal issues or attacking each other like jackals does not change those transgressions it just adds more.. as an outsider i must say all of you are like animals on their prey simply because you didn't like being exposed for your false testiments and false practices.
this means your emotional and psychological and spiritual level is far from being grown up.. will you dare persecute me for pointing out such observations?
a spiritually grown person will reflect on what i say, admit to it and try to change, but a child of darkness will feel their ego hurt and group rpide kicks in causing a person not grown to become defensive bitter and mean/perhaps even spiteful.
Greetings,
I think that the problem with the JWs/Watchtower being critical of other religions (read: anyone who doesn't believe as they do) is that fact that they have so many problems themselves.
When I was studying with JWs I couldn't help but notice how highly critical they were of others and this offended me. Having been a lifelong Catholic, including attending Catholic school, I had never heard a bad thing said about any other church/faith so the tone of the JWs was new to me. It also struck me as rather un-Godlike. Mostly though it gave me the impression that, if they are doing all this criticizing, they must not have any problems/scandal. You can imagine my surprise when I discovered quite the opposite.
Isn't there something in the bible about getting the rafter out of your own eye before pointing out the splinter in your brother's? It seems to me this is one bible principle the JWs might want to make more of an effort to apply.
Just my view,
Julie
