Justin

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Posts by Justin

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  19

  Not part of the world

  by sun_dae in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  what is actually meant by "not part of the world".

  jws claim they are no part of the world.

  in joining here, am i guilty of being a "part of this world"?

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  Justin

  I think the gnostic influence is the key to understanding this concept. According to this view, those who are considered spiritual have their origin in the divine and by consequence cannot be part of the material world, while those whose origin is in the demiurge are by definition material and cannot help but be part of the world. The expression "no part of the world" was taken over by the orthodox (as early as the Gospel of John?) but without the original meaning.

  For our purposes, "no part of the world" has been given a moral significance. When this is done, it remains a vague principle to which specific applications must be made. The WTS makes the applications for its people and tells them what practices are considered to be part of the world and which practices may be morally neutral or even OK. It's a form of control.
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  4

  1 Cor 5:8

  by peacefulpete in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  6your boasting is not good.do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough?

  7clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened.

  for christ our passover also has been sacrificed.

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  Justin

  Actually, 1 Cor. 5:8 fits the original first century context perfectly and does not need to be understood as an interpolation. Paul is using the Jewish "feast of unleavened bread" metaporically. This happens to be the "disfellowship" chapter, and whether we approve of the modern practice of disfellowshipping or not, leaven is here compared to sin and to those who are expelled for sinful practices. The metaphor is based on the Jewish practice of keeping leaven or yeast out of bread products for seven days after the passover (even as no leaven could be eaten on the passover itself). Paul is saying that Jesus died as the passover lamb, and now we are continually observing a "feast" of unleavened bread in consequence of this. It has nothing to do with a literal feast.
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  35

  having a hard time making friends

  by happy camper in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i was wondering if anyone else has had a hard time making friends since leaving the organization.

  being raised as a jw, it seems difficult to me, as i was never allowed to have any friends who weren't other jw's.

  as a result, i have isolated myself to only my immediate family.

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  Justin

  I've never been very good at making friends, even in the org. That said, there are programs to help "shy" people be more expansive in their social endeavors. Along this line, you might try to expand your interests, as I understand they teach you to talk about what your interests are - and unfortunately we may have an obscession with "the truth" - a subject others are definitely not interested in. Also, depending on your age, you might check out the "single scene" where you live (assuming you are single - doesn't have to be bars or sleezey things), but the disadvantage is you will find yourself among those looking for a significant other when you're just getting your feet wet. Hope these suggestions help.
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  17

  Will they ever be mainstream?

  by Justin in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  some religions which have been on the fringe of society are eventually accepted into the mainstream because they have an aspect which is socially acceptable or beneficial to society.

  for example, the seventh day adventists have hospitals and the mormons have the tabernacle choir.

  but the jws seem to have nothing with which to appeal to the larger culture.

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  Justin

  Thanks, Barry. I have wondered for a long time if there might be parallels between JWs and SDA's (besides their common origin in the original Advent movement), as they both have prophetic dates which are receding into the past (1844 for SDA's, 1914 for JWs). But JWs don't have a side to their religion which is positive toward the larger culture as the SDA's do, and I see in your article that the SDA's are really 'coming along'!

  I'm currently reading an old SDA book - The Story of the Seer of Patmos by Stephen Haskell - and the historicist approach to Revelation is much more like the old Bible Student one rather than current JWs. Interesting reading!
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  17

  Will they ever be mainstream?

  by Justin in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  some religions which have been on the fringe of society are eventually accepted into the mainstream because they have an aspect which is socially acceptable or beneficial to society.

  for example, the seventh day adventists have hospitals and the mormons have the tabernacle choir.

  but the jws seem to have nothing with which to appeal to the larger culture.

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  Justin

  Some religions which have been on the fringe of society are eventually accepted into the mainstream because they have an aspect which is socially acceptable or beneficial to society. For example, the Seventh Day Adventists have hospitals and the Mormons have the Tabernacle Choir. But the JWs seem to have nothing with which to appeal to the larger culture. Do you think that this lack is a hindrance to their ever being accepted as mainstream?
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  29

  The Bible Students as a Healthy Alternative

  by jgnat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  .

  for some exiting jw's, they are "true believers" as far as some of the key doctrines of the wtbts are concerned, but they feel trapped in an organization that seems far removed from its original principles.. do you think the bible students are a relatively healthy alternative to the wts machine?.

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  Justin

  If we leave out "healthy," sure they're an alternative for some who leave JWs. There are some whose only complaint is that they can't entertain the heavenly hope without being considered odd balls in the JWs. Some may have read the older literature and think of Russell's time as being like a golden age.

  But beware! Russell had some loose strings in his teachings which the Bible Students have never cleared up. In fact, that's why Rutherford had to start making changes, as any succeeding president would have had to do no matter who he was. A Bible Student, then, must live with a certain degree of ambiguity. They don't always agree among themselves, and frictions can arise which are prevented in the more authoritarian WT.

  I think, in many respects, it is more difficult for a JW to be re-educated as a Bible Student than someone coming from Christendon, because the two religions are thought to be alike when in many ways they have diverged. Someone who doesn't like self-sacrifice shouldn't attempt it, for it is believed that in order to enter the race for the heavenly kingdom one must make a "covenant of sacrifice" - agreeing not to live a "normal" human life, in exchange for the heavenly life to come. Russell once stated that it's OK for someone not consecrated (or "dedicated") to spend money on strawberries (a delicacy in his day), but the consecrated ones should think twice, as their money is better spent in the Lord's work. So the self-sacrifice is there, but it's not supervised by an organization. In fact, the WT has tricked the Witnesses into living a consecrated life without the heavenly reward in view.

  On the positive side, while we frown on 'following a man,' there is something to be said about having a personal saint (such as "the Pastor") as opposed to an impersonal organization. It may be an idealized image of the man, but it is someone who has gone before us and supposedly won the prize. Sort of like Paul - "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ." (1 Cor. 11:1) As I said, what is an alternative for some is not an alterative for many.
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  9

  2 witnesses slain

  by disciple in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  in revelation 11 the two witnesses are given power to prophesy for 1260 days dressed in sackcloth.. in verse 7 they are killed, in verse 11 they are resurrected .

  do you remember what book and when the earliest application of this scripture to the president of the society and i think the vice president occurred ?

  i believe they said it occurred in 1918 or 1919. can you believe they thought the nations and all the earth were attuned to their little group and that a couple of them thrown in prison meant that they had fullfilled this prophecy.

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  Justin

  Thanks, Buster, for letting us know what the Light book actually had to say about the "two witnesses." I don't believe it was ever thought that the "two witnesses" were actually two individuals, but rather (since the publication of Light) that they represented the entire anointed remnant. However many of the Society's officers were imprisoned in 1918, that represented the entire association. When Rutherford said "the Society," he meant everyone, because the average Bible Student was considered to be a member of the Society (which is no longer the case).
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  9

  2 witnesses slain

  by disciple in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  in revelation 11 the two witnesses are given power to prophesy for 1260 days dressed in sackcloth.. in verse 7 they are killed, in verse 11 they are resurrected .

  do you remember what book and when the earliest application of this scripture to the president of the society and i think the vice president occurred ?

  i believe they said it occurred in 1918 or 1919. can you believe they thought the nations and all the earth were attuned to their little group and that a couple of them thrown in prison meant that they had fullfilled this prophecy.

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  Justin

  I think Rutherford began to give the modern JW understanding of Revelation in a two-volume work entitled Light (published 1930). I don't know if this contained the current understanding of the "two witnesses" or not. Perhaps someone can do the research. I seem to recall that he claimed at that time that the seven trumpets and the seven last plagues were fulfilled in seven annual conventions (from 1922 through 1929). Also, he thought that the seven congregations (churches) of Revelation were fulfilled simultaneously (rather than being seven church ages as Bible Students formerly believed), only he thought the fulfillment occurred during the Russell era rather than post-1914.
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  8

  How many ex-jw's that are christians now believe jews are going to hell?

  by booker-t in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  my born-again christian friend that help me leave the wts is devoted to telling jews that they are going to hell for not believing in jesus christ.

  i tell him all the time that i believe that jehovah and jesus going to save jews if their worship is sincere.

  he insist that jews and anybody that is not a born-again christian is going to burn in hell for eternity.

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  Justin

  The term "Christian" has been co-opted by evangelicals, as has "born again." I identify myself as Christian because I don't identify with the atheists on this board, and if there is going to be a division between the believers and unbeleivers, put me with the former. But one can be a Christian and believe in universal salvation, though others may think such a one is not an orthodox Christian.
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  28

  JW off-shoot list

  by under74 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  so, i've been trying to find as many jw off-shoots, mostly personal reasons.

  i never knew there were any until about two years ago.

  i guess the wts did a good job because i didn't have a clue.

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  Justin

  In all fairness, I would not refer to the Bible Students as JW offshoots. The name "Jehovah's Witnesses" was not adopted until 1931. While it is true that Bible Students who remained with the Society were in the process of becoming Jehovah's Witnesses prior to that date, it would be better to refer to those who left earlier as being either Watch Tower offshoots or "Russellite" offshoots (though they would be offended by the latter as well).