Posts by Cicatrix

40

DESTROYED !

by Derrick in

jw
friends

the visiting co pointed out in his talk that "people who love to practice evil will be destroyed [very strong vocal emphasis on this word] !

" many of you insist he is referring to those whose only "sin" is not being a baptized jehovah's witness and their children.

after my experiences on the internet from ajwr to h2o to this forum, however, i'm beginning to appreciate that all is not "black" and "white" but many shades of gray, many hues of stunning colors, and a mixture.. why not use the words killed or executed to describe the fate of these evil people, i asked the co afterwards?

Cicatrix

The one thing that I love about this board is the freedom we have to talk about anything we wish with people who have lots of different belief systems.You have the opportunity to post your opinion, and so do others.Critical thinking is encouraged here also.After years of "mental regulating"(ie, if it doesn't fit with the JW program, you better not even THINK it), I find this a place of respite.

I personally started a thread concerning the wisdom of Solomon, which turned into a discussion of another question I had about the Genesis account and free will.Was I looking for an opportunity to deny the exsistence of God and Christ so I could indulge in immorality with a guiltless conscience?Not that I know of.I simply had questions that have bugged me for years(since before I was JW) and I wanted to discuss them.Lots of folks posted, and I learned a lot.I don't think anyone was trying to "sway" me to believe as they do.They were just posting how they personally felt. That's how conversations work.Sometimes people feel strongly about their stance and defend it. That's how communication works, too.

The thing that I had a problem with was your automatic assumption that those who don't believe in God and Christ take that stance simply because they wish to live an immoral, selfish lifestyle. You said that not only do they do this, they also try to get others to join them.You mentioned AIDS alot, as if it is some kind of punishment meted out to only those who transgress biblical law.You know, this is the same stuff you hear from the platform week after week at the meetings.It's a pretty weak arguement, designed to scare anyone who questions into compliancy.And it makes me question even more if there really is any such thing as free will.If there were, why would you feel the need to attack those who feel differently with such blanket stereotypes? If your God is the All Knowing Supreme Ruler,can't you just let them believe and live as they wish and let your God figure it all out? But with organized religion, it never seems to work that way, does it?

From one who has been DESTROYED many times by many people of many religions.

30

Who's Got a Spooky Story to Tell?

by SpannerintheWorks in

jw
friends

here's my one and only spooky story.. my wife goes to visit her jw sister, who lives several hundred miles away, about once a year.

while she is away, i get some major diy jobs done.

she is away at the moment, so i'm fitting a new bathroom.

Cicatrix

My sister just related something similar to me. She said that her daughter came in one day not too long ago and said that a man standing in the yard under their pine tree told her hello. My sister dashed outside, worried about some strange man talking to her daughter, but there was no one there.My niece kept talking about the man for some weeks after.A while later, they went to visit my sister's in-laws and were looking through thier photo album. My niece looked at one picture and said "There's the man, there's the man." It was my brother-in-law's grandfather. He had built the house that my sister and bro-in-law own, and lived in it for many years.My sister said that was the first time either she or her daughter had seen a photo of the man.

Another person I know came to me white as a sheet one morning about fifteen years ago, and told me that the night before, they had been driving down a dirt road.Something very tall with glowing red eyes appeared on the road and started to move toward the car. The person said they took off as fast as they could go for home.Well, I pretty much discounted what they said as a very active imagination.A few months ago, I saw The Mothman Prophecies.I called another person whom this person told about the incident, and asked them to watch the movie and tell me what they thought about it. I didn't tell the person what the movie was about or mention the other person who had the experience.A few days later, I went over to their house and asked them what they thought of the movie.They said, "Don't tell so and so about this movie."

I've had experiences also that I can't simply explain away.

63

What did you do to piss the brothers off?

by Pleasuredome in

jw
friends

when you were getting fed up with meetings before you gave up, was there anything you did to deliberately get on the brothers nerves?.

i turned up to a meeting once with jeans on, and a red top with cccp on it with the 'hammer and sickle'.

i also went to another bs group a few times so that if i wasnt at one group they'd think i was at the other and vice versa.

Cicatrix

When I received yet another assignment to do a talk on wifely submission based on the good example of Sarah, I did research on the time Sarah disagreed with Abraham and God told him to listen to her.It covered the material quite nicely, as I used all of the assigned scriptures, but I don't think it was the message the bros quite intended to get across:)

Also, I had fun with one of my myriad immorality assignments, too, although I got a bit off topic on this one. I covered the information in the YPA on pornography, aiming it at the husbands and adult men in the audience instead of the youths. Boy, was it fun to watch certain elders squirm:)It was worth having to re-do that one.

But the best thing I did was refuse to state a reason for DAing myself.No reason, nothing to control.

21

Elders admit huge numbers leaving

by mamashel in

.

my daughters boyfriend was at his moms the other night and the elders just happened to stop by and talk with him.. anyhow, after their discussion about him and my daughter and the baby and what they are going to do, (havent been to meetings in 7 months mind you), her boyfriend told the elders that he no longer wanted to attend meetings and my daughter told them the same.. the elders admitted to them that there is a huge number of people that felt the same way, and the halls are much emptier than they ever were.. hmmm, i wonder why?.

mamashel

Cicatrix

I think the internet is helping many to leave. The information revealing the changing WTS policies is a real eye-opener for many, including me(this board is where I learned about the UN scandal). I surfed for a number of weeks, after being told about the Silentlambs issue by another witness who taped it. It wasn't what made me want to leave in the first place, but it sure confirmed what I already knew about the society's don't ask/don't tell stance on abuse from firsthand knowledge.Seeing it in print made me realize that I could no longer remain loyal to an organization that claimed to fight for the rights of children and women (oh those slick Watchtower and Awakes), while in the back rooms of kingdom halls all over the world, they wielded the right to cut women and children off from their family and friends if they dare spoke out or sought legal action against their perpetrators(I was told not to call the police also, but my mother did anyway).

Also, when you are cut off from a way of life you've lived for many years, it can be a bit daunting to start a new one. It really helps to have a place like this board, where you can get advice from others who have been on the inside. I find that most people who haven't lived it have a hard time understanding why it's affected your life so completely.They don't understand that you just can't walk away from a kingdom hall the way you can walk away from the church of a mainstream denomination. I think having the boards to come to for support will help alot of people be able to get on with what is left of their lives. I know personally, when the elders came knocking, I thought of everyone here. When they relayed through my mother that I no longer had the spirit of God, and that I was cut off, I thought about everything I learned here.This board has really been a nice counter weight for me, and many others, I'm sure.

8

Speech on high control groups-any suggestions?

by Cicatrix in

jw
friends

i'm considering doing a speech on high control groups for my communications class.

i have five minutes, so was wondering what angle might be the most appropriate to reach my audience (a mixture of young people just out of high school and people in their mid thirties and forties who are training for career changes).i can't use any specific groups as an example.

cicatrix

Cicatrix

Thanks for the suggestions.

Onacruse-I thought about doing general characteristics using the info from this board.I know when I was on my way out, seeing them really helped me understand that I did need to leave.But I thought that five minutes was too short a time to cover it all.

Larc-I really like your suggestion to relate it to the language aspect.Besides the special language making the group cohesive, I've also noticed that since I've left, certain key words that remind me of events while I was still in, will set me off and make me combative. And Minimus, I think it was, was talking about "kingdom melodies" still popping into her head.Also, there are those ominous words, apostate, disfellowshipped, dissassociated.Think of all the harm they've done to families!

Smokey-I'm not allowed to mention the name of a specific group, or I probably would. However, I suspect that one of the guys in my class might be studying with a witness because of some things he said(he doesn't know I'm an ex-witness), so I considered not identifying the group just to keep him from tuning out. Also, there are a lot of other high control groups that people should be aware of.I'm glad, though that you spoke out and that it went so well for you! It's nice to know that in some places true freedom of speech still exists (just not in my small college, although this is being challenged regularly by students--myself included). I would definitely let my classmates know that the speech was based on personal experience and offer to talk to them after class about it. We are even allowed to give printed info to anyone who asks for it- we just can't pass it out to the entire class (that's kind of ironic, considering the right the witnesses have fought for and won to deliver their message to the door of every house they visit, based on freedom of religion).

16

The JW Response to Brainwashing Accusations

by OrbitingTheSun in

jw
friends

i was just thinking about a discussion i had a few years ago when i was still an active jw... .

i asked a pioneer sister why so many people accused jws of brainwashing.

she happily responded, "well, they accuse us of brainwashing because that is what we do.

Cicatrix

I had a similar conversation with my mother a few years back. She tried to tell me that I was being brainwashed. I responded by saying "Well, I'm learning to be a better wife, mother, neighbor, and friend by what I'm learning.If the witnesses are washing my brain with positive things, so be it."(totally denying even to myself the divisive nature of the witnesses, who constantly admonished to "keep oneself separate from the world" and "limit association with nonbelieving family members and neighbors, lest they separate you from Jehovah"). And now that I think of it, I had already been doing all those "upbuilding" things before I joined the WTS. I just wasn't taught by my parents and grandparents that doing such made me part of an elite group that deserved salvation over all others(a WTS teaching that I never did agree with).They taught me that it was the duty of all humans to treat their fellow humans thus, not for some reward, but because it was the right thing to do. I'm glad they gave me that foundation, and I'm doubly glad that they never gave up on me!

8

Speech on high control groups-any suggestions?

by Cicatrix in

jw
friends

i'm considering doing a speech on high control groups for my communications class.

i have five minutes, so was wondering what angle might be the most appropriate to reach my audience (a mixture of young people just out of high school and people in their mid thirties and forties who are training for career changes).i can't use any specific groups as an example.

cicatrix

Cicatrix

Hello All,

I'm considering doing a speech on high control groups for my communications class. I have five minutes, so was wondering what angle might be the most appropriate to reach my audience (a mixture of young people just out of high school and people in their mid thirties and forties who are training for career changes).I can't use any specific groups as an example.

Thanks

Cicatrix

24

was this place scary the first time?

by jurs in

here and there a newbie will post and its obvious that they think that this site is for jw's and not ex's.

did any of you ever come across an apostate site on accident?

what about the first time you came here?

Cicatrix

I came on this board after a friend had mentioned the media coverage of the sex abuse cases.I was uncomfortable at first--those old tapes started playing in my head about apostate material. Then I started reading the posts and realised that a lot of people had experienced what I had, and I realised that this is a place that I need to come to very much right now.

Thanks to all who have responded to my posts and offered me advice:)

Cicatrix

6

WTS Phobia implants

by Brummie in

edited to say "dang i posted it in the wrong thread" .

just read this post by dan and wondered just how many of us are still facing the same things

since leaving the wt i occasionally have mental visions of dying a terrible, violent death.

Cicatrix

Amen, Scully. After the elders received my dissassociation letter, they approached my mother to find out why I left. She said she wasn't sure, but maybe it was because of the way I was treated by the congregation members.Their response--"Well, we didn't see anything wrong with the way the friends were treating her." Then they read her a scripture about ones who leave losing Jehovah's spirit(ooh-there's that scary warning again).She pointed out the fact that the congregation hasn't grown in years, maybe because of the way the members treat each other.She suggested that maybe it was time they start noticing that this was happening, because if they didn't, they would just keep losing members until there was no congregation left. She offered them a paper that she found while researching a project for a college course that discussed behavioral reasons why Jehovah's Witnesses were a threat to societal structure--hehe.They declined to take it for some reason.Oh,did I mention it was written by a former elder:)

I find myself keeping a distance from people,also. Partially because of what I went through at the kingdom hall and partially because of living in an unhealthy marriage(which was also related to the borg somewhat). I've been countering this by taking college courses that focus on human communication and psychology, and doing a lot of journal writing and asking questions on this board that I always wondered about but was afraid to ask with Big Brother hanging over my head.I've also confided in some people about the spiritual and physical abuse, and they have kindly given me things to read that have helped. But people still seem to know that there is something up-especially those that have dealt with abuse victims. Like Brummie said, most are very patient and understanding, especially if they know or suspect your background.But still, I think it's prudent to be careful about self-disclosure.

One thing that helped me, oddly enough, was a book called "The Artists Way". It ascertains that in order to live your life to its most full and have the ability to really create great art and writing, one must first deal with things from your past that are holding you back. It has writing exercises in it, and encourages the use of a journal. Doing the exercises and journal writing were actually my catalyst for getting out of the borg. As I wrote, I realized that I would be happier if I was dead forever, than I would be if I was living forever in paradise with people who were constantly nitpicking, trying to catch me doing some horrible sin, and, like Dan said, "turned every situation into a test of faith in Jah and the organization."

As far as the Job rationality goes(oh how I so remember that one), look at it from another angle.Did Jehovah remove his protection from Job's family because they were bad?No--so why are they even trying to prove that removal of spirit argument using this account?That takes things out of context big time, and witnesses are really good at nailing others for taking things out of context:) Are Jehovah's Witnesses really protected in some special way? Are their families free of death, accidents, and illness? No. And what was the reasoning from the platform on that question? Oh, yeah, that "time and unforseen occurence befall us all-including Jehovah's people."So, they argued the Job issue from both sides of their mouths--anything to prove what they want to prove. But does it make it so?Did it make it so in Jesus' time when the religious leaders of his day were adding to the letter of the law and burdening the people with rules they were incapable of following(sound familiar?)

Yes Scully and Dan, alot of us are struggling with it.It's one of those cult tactics that is so useful.It's used precisely to put up a wall between indoctrinates and others.It's what allows the control to be so effective. We've gotten a lot farther than others who are still in the borg and can't let themselves see all the dissension and pain, because we realize we've been affected.So we'll deal with it in alot of creative and different ways because we are free to do so. Isn't it great to have the freedom to talk about it?:)

Well, gotta get off my soapbox and go to bed now.

Cicatrix

34

King Solomon

by Cicatrix in

okay, maybe i'm ignorant, but i can't stop thinking about this.. it's recorded in the bible that jehovah gave solomon great wisdom.

so why did he eventually turn away from jehovah and start serving the gods of his foreign born wives?it would seem to me that that increased wisdom from jehovah would make him more likely to continue to serve jehovah faithfully.. this also brings to mind the account of adam and eve and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.. i considered this from the angle that solomon used his free will and chose to oppose jehovah.

but is free will really "free" if you are punished with death for disobeying the creator???.

Cicatrix

I understand what you are trying to say, Zech., but I'm not at the point you are, probably has something to do with my former spiritual advisors deciding that I have lost God's holy spirit simply because I no longer choose to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

I haven't cursed God or done anything intrinsically immoral, yet they, imperfect humans, have taken it upon themselves to decide my fate.I don't feel like I've "lost God's blessing" just because I have a few doubts. So therein lies the controversy for me.I just really don't think a God of love would turn their back on you if you had a few doubts. Seems to me a God of love would invite you to investigate all you want until you find him.