Hah, I had a mini van because I had a lot of children and needed all of the seats. I was expected to drive it and drive for service. Toward the end of my involvement with the JWs, I started bringing my two door, next- to- impossible-to- get -out -of- the- back-seat, standard shift sport car. The teens wanted to go out with me, but for SOME REASON I was never directed to drive when I had that car.
Cicatrix
JoinedPosts by Cicatrix
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22
Who drove the Christendom Car in Field Service?
by prophecor inthey were affectionately called christendom cars.
you know, the 2 door coupes that the friends had to struggle to get in and out of the back seat, out in service.
was it you, or did you do the spiritually respnosible thing and drive the 4 door sedan?.
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Long Distance Adultery and Other Issues
by buddhaisbetter inallow me a moment to introduce myself: first of all, i am not a member of your faith as surely can be garnered from my choice of user name.
i joined this forum with the intention of getting some information on a situation i'm forced to contend with that concerns my son.
my questions are not designed to bash your beliefs, regardless of my personally held opinions and i hope that any discussion can be conducted without contention.
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Cicatrix
Hello Buddhaisbetter,
I am not clear what type of feedback you are looking for, but I'll give my two cents.First, although anyone is welcome to join here, most of the members of this board are former Jehovah's Witnesses-including myself. I will give you the warning that if you try to pursuade your son by showing him the advice of members here, if he is "in the know" about "apostates" (ex-JWs and anyone who publicly criticizes the JW organisation,or the organisations interpretation of theology) and "apostate" internet sites through his girlfriend or the local congregation he is attending, he will most likely turn a deaf ear to anything you say to him, as JWs are instructed never to listen to, read material from, or associate with apostates in any manner whatsoever.This site allows criticism and debate about the JW organisation, so it will be on a JW "no-no" list.
As a mom of four late teen/twenty-something sons, I fully understand your desperation and concern, as we have dealt with some "stuff" in our family that felt as if it would rip the heart right out of me and them.Because of your son's current mental health situation and the fact that he is in the throes of the chemical inducement of the passion of a possible new relationship, he is not exactly thinking logically.If I suspected one of my children were experiencing major depression and they were not under medical care, the first thing I would do is encourage them to seek counseling and/or talk to a qualified medical practioner.If they were already under care, I would encourage them to make an appointment with their practioner right away. If your analysis that he is depressed is correct,this issue seems to run much deeper than a forbidden love triangle, and trying to deal with that issue without dealing with the underlying depression is kind of like applying a bandaid to a serious gaping wound.That being said, I also realize it can be VERY hard to convince someone who is suffering from major depression to get help, so please don't beat yourself up if he refuses.Legally he is an adult and has the right to make his own choices. You can tell him that you think he is exhibiting signs of depression and you love and care for him and want him to seek treatment.You can tell him why you don't approve of his relationship choices or the JW ideology (then you can come here and rant and rave about them since most of us understand because we've been there, lol), but you ultimately must accept that sometimes kids learn their lessons through the school of hard knocks, and it isn't anything you did or didn't do that causes that to happen.Just tell him how you feel, let him go, and let him know your door is always open to him .
You also need to be aware that JWs teach that "worldly relatives" (ie-anyone who does not support JW theology) can be used by Satan (who they view to be a real entity) to try and cause newly interested ones to stop studying with the JWs, so new studies "expect" opposition and will be looking for it. You probably want to approach him with a logically reasoned debate giving all of the reasons why he should not become involved in this love triangle or with the JWs. If he is already agreeing with the JW worldview (albeit obviously with his own personal unorthodox spin to it), he may simply see this as you standing in the way of his desire to be with this woman, and possibly eternal life, if he is actually starting to accept their doctrine.That doesn't mean don't give him your reasons, it's just a warning about how he may react when you do.Try and word things so that he does not feel like you are expecting him to agree with you.Never assume that he has the same outlook on life he did in the past. Perhaps he has decided he doesn't have the same outlook on issues that you do. People do change (and change back later sometimes).;)Talk to him and find out what his current worldview is.
I can reiterate along with the others that as far as JW belief goes, this woman is NOT orthodox in any way. JWs officially view adultery as a serious sin, and being involved in an adulterous relationship results in a judicial hearing before elders and disfellowshipping (its a state of usually temporary excommunication used for discipline where other members shun the person until they repent and the elders give the go-ahead for them to associate with the person again).Unrepentant adulterers can be excommunicated permanently from the religion, but since she is encouraging your son to study, I don't think that's her plan.It is possible that she is hoping for charges of adultery to be levied and that her husband will divorce her for it, as adultery is the reason why JW couples can divorce each other "scripturally" (there are often reverberating social repurcussions for the adulterous mate later that she may not be considering at the moment, while she is so focused on wanting to be free of her current spouse in any way she can free herself).However, the adulterous mate is not given the right to decide for or against divorce-the innocent mate is.Her husband may decide to forgive her and not seek divorce. I highly doubt the elders gave her permission to keep talking to your son, although there are situations where elders "look the other way" when social ties are stronger than org policy or when doing so protects the org's image.
Good luck to you and your son. In my experience, then best thing you can do is say your piece, then go on living your life in the manner you have before.Someone here on this board gave me that advice when one of my adult sons was in crisis, and they were so right! Educate yourself on the JWs, as their view is very different from Buddhism (I attend a local Buddhist study/meditation group, although I am not personally Buddhist). This site has lots of very good information.
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Whatever has happened about swine flu?
by badboy indon't seem to have heard so much about it lately.
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Cicatrix
It's hit our area hard in the Midwest, USA.One child in my sons' school system has tested positive for it, and a woman in the next county over just died from it (she had underlying health issues).They are assuming that all cases here at this time of year are h1n1, because it's not seasonal flu season yet. Schools south of us were closed Friday, and our school will close if the absence rate rises to 20% (it was at 10% and rising last count).My son had it last week, based on his symptoms (they are telling people with symptoms to stay home and only go to the doctor if there seem to be complications).He was moderately sick for five days-no more so than I've seen from seasonal flu in the past.My other son's girlfriend had it, also.
They have been recommending the vaccine big time in this area. Unfortunately, the flu arrived, and there has only been enough vaccine delivered here to give to health care workers. The next round goes to people at high risk, but they don't know when that round is coming in. I think half the population will have had the flu by the time they get the vaccine delivered. In the meantime, a lot of people are very anxious, because of all the media coverage, and the fact that there is no vaccine here yet.
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Is it alowed to watch / read Harry Potter movies (books) in your area?....
by Albert Einstein inis it alowed to watch / read harry potter movies (books) in your area?.
in my country (eastern europe) it is viewed mostly as "unexemplary" , although many kids have harry potter dvds at home, but nobody talks about it .... at circuit assembly one speaker warned, that "some might be tempted to watch a movie, with a little witch .... (of course it is very dangerous and we must stay away!!!)".
when i started my departure several months ago, i made sure my son has all movies on dvd and i openly talk about it with dubs who visit our home - how nice the movies are - ... nobody so far dared to react.... albert .
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Cicatrix
It was definitely not allowed in my former congregation! Neither was another popular series-Goosebumps. My children found out that one prominent elder's children had the Goosebump series hidden in their shed (they were gifts from their nonJW grandmother), and promptly aquired the HP books and hid them under their beds. I found them when I was cleaning one day, but since I was mentally well on the way out, just left them and said nothing.
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Today's (10-18-09) Watchtower Study. More Lies...
by tryingtoexit inwell, today is another interesting day.
as some of you all know...i have been trying to make my exit out of the cult but my wife has been giving me some probs along the way.
today as usual i dont go to the meeting, i go on with my day as normal, wash clothes, cook breakfast, and so on.
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Cicatrix
Hmm, a quick internet search informed me that both Newton and Milton leaned toward Socinism, Arianism, and anti-trinitarianism, so it's no surprise the WTS would quote them, heretics from orthodox Christendom that they are, lol. I wonder how many JWs are aware of their purported occult/alchemy ties, though.
As far as what the society is still saying over and over and over and over... Well, that is how you keep people believing and blindly following.Establish yourself as sole earthly authority,make an assertion, call it truth, and keep repeating it with trigger words, oops, I mean a special "theocratic language", while discouraging the "flock" from associating with anyone who might provide an alternative answer, and with covering over your glaring mistakes with MORE trigger words like "new light," and "the governing body, overseers, elders, etc, have imperfect human understanding". Black/White, Good/Evil, Us/Them (with US being more superior than them). The dichotomy and quick discipline for "independent thinking" is what keeps the machine running smoothly.It is also the definition of an authoritarian cult.
You can see the little man running the OZ machine, because you are no longer a cog. Your wife cannot. If you try to debate her, she will most likely go into Us/Them mode. Your resistance to her efforts to bring you in line with the party only fuel her black and white belief system. "If you are not for me you are against me." How many times do they preach THAT from the platform?She EXPECTS you to be against her, so she LOOKS for ways you are against her.It calms her when you are outright against her. It shakes her little world when you give her personal answers,as you did today when you said "I just don't feel like it," instead of theological arguments,although her brain will probably turn even this into a theological argument at some point.BUT, if you keep refusing to argue about it and simply refrain from going to meetings, she may eventually stop trying to constantly convince you to go to meetings.
As a woman who used to be just like your wife, I think you should know that she probably really feels an obligation to do what she does. She thinks it is LOVING. She has internal pressure from her misguided belief system, and HEAVY external pressure from the congregation. She is judged not only by what she does, but by how you respond. She is told she is BLOOD GUILTY if she does not do what she is doing!
A wife with an unbelieving or "spiritually weak" husband-unless she becomes uber-pioneer or makes up for it in some other extraordinary way, is generally considered to be spiritually lacking, because, don't ya know, the bible says that if a wife behaves properly, a husband will be "won without a word."The WTS gives lip service about "free will," etc., but bottom line is, the general expectation is that a wife (or husband) will bring their family in line with the party line.Also, she is fed horror stories about what will occur to you and anyone else who doesn't follow the JW way of thinking at Armageddon.
As far as the WTS, I really don't know why they keep it up. I think it has a lot to do with group dynamics and power and some actually really wanting to have a noble cause to believe in.
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the first christmas...need help
by highdose inhey everyone,.
i've decided for the first time in my life to celebrate christmas this year, just like everyone else around here.
trouble is i have no idea how to begin!
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Cicatrix
Lisa: We have been out of the org for a number of years now, and this is the first year my daughter used the word "tradition" in relation to Christmas. She and her hubby and son have always gone to visit with her in-laws for all of the other holidays except Christmas (they live a few miles from us, and see us regularly, while they only see them on holidays, so I certainly don't mind the arrangement). Well, this year, she is expecting, and they aren't going to be able to go for Thanksgiving, because it's so close to her due date. Her husband suggested that they go to his family's for Christmas, as the baby will be born before then, and I told her I don't mind, as I am sure they want to see the baby, but she told me she put her foot down and said no, because it is TRADITION for them to come to our house, LOL. I'm not so sure they won't be going there for Christmas anyway, but once again, I don't mind, because both my daughter and hubby have invited me to be at my grandbaby's birth!And I am pleased that she views Christmas with us as a tradition now!
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the first christmas...need help
by highdose inhey everyone,.
i've decided for the first time in my life to celebrate christmas this year, just like everyone else around here.
trouble is i have no idea how to begin!
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Cicatrix
Happy Holidays to the Highdose family!
We have a tradition of going to a local tree farm to select and cut down our tree each year.Our grandson gets to decide which tree, and he helps cut it down. After we find the tree (and have a snowball fight if the weather permits, lol), we go to the gift shop and have cider and pick out one decoration to buy. Then we go home and have a tree decorating party, with pizza, Christmas cookies, hot chocolate, and spiked egg nog for the big kids. We put our tree out in the garden after Christmas, where it is a nice winter shelter for the birds. In the spring, we have a "Sping is here" celebration bonfire with the tree, and scatter the ashes in the garden.
I also buy each person in the family a Christmas tree ornament every year. The ornament pertains to something special that went on in their life that year. When the children leave home, they take their ornament collection with them, as a start for their own household's tree.
We pick one charity to contribute to each year at Christmas and Thanksgiving.
One tip on a live tree-if you have wood heat or corn heat, your tree may only last about two weeks, even with regular watering.
My extended family has a tradition where we all draw names for gifts, then MAKE a gift for the recipient, or offer to provide a service. No purchased gifts are allowed!
Don't forget to pick up some Christmas music! It's amazing how songs will evoke memories for years to come!I also "have" to watch certain Christmas shows with my family, or it doesn't "feel" like Christmas, lol.
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Don't want to celebrate holidays even with my daughter...
by cognac ini feel like its so much work, stressful, commercialized and since i never formed the habit of it i hate the idea of celebrating them.
i wouldn't mind buying presents for my daughter on christmas and maybe doing a treasure hunt for halloween (i don't want her taking candy from even my neighbors) and things like that so she doesn't feel left out or like she's missing something.
just something easy and informal...
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Cicatrix
Scully: LOL-Quite awhile before I even considered leaving the JWs,I made the terrible mistake of making and hanging winter decorations for a sledding/skating party I had for the children in our congregation. It didn't even seem to matter that they had SCRIPTURES FROM THE NWT on them. Somehow, snowmen, sleds, snowflakes, and mittens, were considered to be "stumbling"!Never did understand that one. It didn't deter me from having parties and decorating. I was just a little more careful with the guest list after that.
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Don't want to celebrate holidays even with my daughter...
by cognac ini feel like its so much work, stressful, commercialized and since i never formed the habit of it i hate the idea of celebrating them.
i wouldn't mind buying presents for my daughter on christmas and maybe doing a treasure hunt for halloween (i don't want her taking candy from even my neighbors) and things like that so she doesn't feel left out or like she's missing something.
just something easy and informal...
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Cicatrix
Unlike Bluecanary and Greenie, in our family, we DID have regular gift giving days for our children. They got little gifts before assemblies and conventions, and a larger gift when we got home. We also had "Toy Day" once a year,and whenever a new sibling was added to the family, the baby gave all of the other children presents. But that is just NOT the same as sharing cultural holiday traditions. That is what taught me that holidays are NOT about the commercial elements, that instead they are about shared activities and cherished familiy traditions.
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Don't want to celebrate holidays even with my daughter...
by cognac ini feel like its so much work, stressful, commercialized and since i never formed the habit of it i hate the idea of celebrating them.
i wouldn't mind buying presents for my daughter on christmas and maybe doing a treasure hunt for halloween (i don't want her taking candy from even my neighbors) and things like that so she doesn't feel left out or like she's missing something.
just something easy and informal...
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Cicatrix
Hi Cognac,
The great thing about being out of the org is that there is no set way you have to do anything!Have whatever celebrations you please, however you please to have them, and ENJOY making your own decisions!
We do hear mostly about the commercial side of holidays in the media, but there are plenty of folks who view holidays as more of a shared cultural experience, and have more simple holiday traditions. They decide what elements of the holidays add something positive to their lives, and leave the rest behind.
If you want some examples and suggestions, try doing an internet search for simple christmas. There are also books on the subject.My library has several. I know, because I've checked them out.