"In the overall story, who is the "good guy" and who is the "bad guy"?
Everything I read in the bible keeps telling me that the "God" character in the story is a brutal dictator who wants slaves who will blindly obey him and who will torture and kill anyone who defies him. Satan, on the other had, seems to want to grant everyone freedom."
This is why I think it does matter whether you think of the Bible as being even partly literal or not. Who the "good guy" is and who the "bad guy" is depends a lot on whether you identify yourself with and accept this particular world view, or if you view yourself as more of an outsider.
If you view the Bible as the literal word of God, you probably have no problem with the idea of dedicating yourself wholly to the God of the Bible. In this view, anything He does would been seen as being for the greater good, even if it does amount to killing people.God is seen as all-knowing, and loving, and that as the creator of all things, has the ultimate say over what will happen to His creation. This is a reflection of what happens in our time, when there are wars that must be fought. Some people think that the ends justify the means, that sometimes there must be sacrifice of the lives of despots and their supporters for the eventual greater good (the identification of the despots and their supporters being divided by political, religious, and ideological lines and deeds). Other people think that loss of life is never good, that it is our ideology about war that must evolve.
Who is right? Well, both sides really. But it often depends on circumstances which way society as a whole leans.
Same with good versus evil in the Bible. Some will distinctly separate the two entities-that God is all good and Satan is all bad (and heartily condemn others who don't think their way). Others will read the same thing and think that it depends on the issue, or decide that the accounts in the Bible are symbolic, meant to encourage us to examine events issue by issue (and heartily condemn people who take the Bible literally). And yet others think that there really would be no knowledge of what is good without its opposite being present, that Satan is just the shadow aspect of God.
A lot depends on an individual's own life experiences.And views on this can change as a person's experiences change.
We can look at our own lives, too. I don't think I'm all good, that's for damn sure. I can be vindictive, outraged, looking for justice. I can be altruistic, forgiving, and loving. Sometimes I can be everything at once (especially if my children are concerned, lol).
I don't know if that helps any. I'm just throwing out lots of theories today.
Cicatrix
JoinedPosts by Cicatrix
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162
If its good, God did it... if its bad Satan did it....
by Elsewhere in.
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i've read the bible and i don't recall satan himself actually ever doing anything evil or harmful... however i read many accounts where god killed or tormented countless thousands of people for arbitrary reasons.. aside from prophecies where jehover says that satan will hurt people in the future (hasn't happened yet, and no sign that it will happen), can anyone cite an example in the bible where satan actually harmed anyone?.
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Cicatrix
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162
If its good, God did it... if its bad Satan did it....
by Elsewhere in.
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i've read the bible and i don't recall satan himself actually ever doing anything evil or harmful... however i read many accounts where god killed or tormented countless thousands of people for arbitrary reasons.. aside from prophecies where jehover says that satan will hurt people in the future (hasn't happened yet, and no sign that it will happen), can anyone cite an example in the bible where satan actually harmed anyone?.
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Cicatrix
LT,
"Who said it was a test?
That would be contrary to scripture (James 1:13)."
Good point.I was aware of that scripture, hence my confusion. But that still doesn't really answer why God put the trees in the garden in the first place (Gen.3:9), told Adam and Eve to stay away from them,then when Eve was decieved by the snake,greatly increased Eve's pain in childbirth, caused her to have problems with her hubby, and kicked her and Adam out of the garden so they couldn't eat from the other tree.To me, the "I" statement indicates that he did this directly and deliberately (for whatever reason he had), not that it was simply a consequence of the actions they chose to take.
I could understand it if the trees were just there in the first place. But Genesis specifically mentions that those trees were put in the Garden by God, and they are mentioned by their names, not just as "trees".
I guess I'm looking at this from the viewpoint of being a mother. I wouldn't expect young children to stay away from something that would cause their death, I would remove the death dealing thing from their area, or remove them from the death dealing thing BEFORE they got themselves in trouble with it. Or not bring it into the area where they were in the first place, if it was within my control.
"Under the Christian framework "grace" would surely be necessary to allow "free will" to work the other way too, wouldn't it?"
But why do humans need grace to begin with, if the whole Garden thing was not a test, and they are created in God's image? Aren't people fine the way they are, or is it a spirtual evolutionary kinda thing? Can you give me some sort of example of what you mean by grace? It's been a long time since I've dealt with the subject of grace, though I did learn a bit about it as a child before I joined the JWs. In my background, grace was equated with forgiveness and mercy, which needed to be applied because humans inherited sin from Adam and Eve.
"Try substituting "Christ" for "tree of life", in the Genesis account, and see if that does anything for you, regarding the concept of grace over works."
Ahh, "Christ" and the "tree of life" are an interesting correlation. Thanks for giving me something to think about.I don't have a problem with the grace over works thing. Even as a JW, I never bought into the works thing.It's the free will issue that I constantly ruminate on:)
"It's good to question our preconceptions, especially when they've been given us by the WTS."
I think so, too. I tend to think more along the lines of universal symbols, though, so maybe I need to hone in on particulars a bit more. I've noticed the correlation between the world tree and divinty/messiahs/avatars/shamans in many mythologies, and have wondered about many of the shamanistic aspects of Christ. The new correlation you suggested between Christ and the tree of life has piqued my interest even more.
Thanks, Little Toe. I love when my brains hurt from thinking about new concepts someone has introduced me to:) -
162
If its good, God did it... if its bad Satan did it....
by Elsewhere in.
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i've read the bible and i don't recall satan himself actually ever doing anything evil or harmful... however i read many accounts where god killed or tormented countless thousands of people for arbitrary reasons.. aside from prophecies where jehover says that satan will hurt people in the future (hasn't happened yet, and no sign that it will happen), can anyone cite an example in the bible where satan actually harmed anyone?.
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Cicatrix
Undercover,
I view the Bible as mythological, which is a combination of morality stories and
the history of a certain group of peoples, viewed through the somewhat slanted lenses of said peoples.Like all of us human beans, sometimes they are honest, sometimes they are combining fact and fiction, and sometimes they are telling some really vivid tall tales.
We can learn as much or more sometimes about human nature from stories than we can from reality. Sometimes "reality" can be explained better in story form than with dry facts;) -
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Pyramids vs the Flood
by ezekiel3 inhistorians and scientists agree: the egyptian pyramids were built between 2500 - 2100 bc.
we even have some astronomical evendence that this is true: http://www.robertbauval.com/articles/gpdating.html.
jws teach that:the flood occured at 2370 bcestimates that the tower of babel was constructed around 2189 bcjoseph was sold into slavery 1750 bc (eventually to eygpt, already established as a world power).
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Cicatrix
"So, in 230 years you get the wonder of the world and a complete civilization? Talk about a quick-build."
ROFLMAO! The ultimate quick build.No wonder the early WTS fathers tried to claim it as some sign from Jehovah. Too bad it was Pagan and they can't use the example of the slaves who built the pyramids to urge the brothers and sisters to "do more" in the quick build work.
Great thread, btw! Thanks to all you historians who contributed. -
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Visions..
by StinkyPantz inyou have several vivid visions.
in the visions a person/entity tells you that s/he is god.
when this happens you are awake and you have not deliberately ingested any drugs.
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Cicatrix
Does it really matter from whence it came, if the message is positive and brings you peace?
"Those who know It speak of It not, those who speak of It know It not."
~Vedas
I agree with Sirona and Gently Feral on this one.
I'm glad you'e willing to keep an open mind, 'cause believe me, you'll need one if it actually happens to you;) -
162
If its good, God did it... if its bad Satan did it....
by Elsewhere in.
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i've read the bible and i don't recall satan himself actually ever doing anything evil or harmful... however i read many accounts where god killed or tormented countless thousands of people for arbitrary reasons.. aside from prophecies where jehover says that satan will hurt people in the future (hasn't happened yet, and no sign that it will happen), can anyone cite an example in the bible where satan actually harmed anyone?.
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Cicatrix
Hi Undercover,
Glad to see I'm not the only one who's confused about this:) -
162
If its good, God did it... if its bad Satan did it....
by Elsewhere in.
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i've read the bible and i don't recall satan himself actually ever doing anything evil or harmful... however i read many accounts where god killed or tormented countless thousands of people for arbitrary reasons.. aside from prophecies where jehover says that satan will hurt people in the future (hasn't happened yet, and no sign that it will happen), can anyone cite an example in the bible where satan actually harmed anyone?.
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Cicatrix
"Also, how do we know that Adam and Eve weren't forgiven?
We know that they had actions and consequences (from the story) but why does that preclude them taking advantage of "grace"?"
Good point, LT, but if "free will" were truly such, why would we need "grace" in the first place? This is what confuses the heck out of me!
Also, why would God feel inclined to set up a test by putting the tree of knowledge and the tree of life in the garden in the first place? To me, that's akin to putting a cake on the table and telling your hungry three year old not to touch it:) Paul said that God doesn't need anything from humans, so why this need to test humans by demanding obedience? -
162
If its good, God did it... if its bad Satan did it....
by Elsewhere in.
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i've read the bible and i don't recall satan himself actually ever doing anything evil or harmful... however i read many accounts where god killed or tormented countless thousands of people for arbitrary reasons.. aside from prophecies where jehover says that satan will hurt people in the future (hasn't happened yet, and no sign that it will happen), can anyone cite an example in the bible where satan actually harmed anyone?.
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Cicatrix
"God doesn't expect loyalty, He deserves it though. Your ass is His."
This ideology really cancels out "free will." How can you have true free will if you are punished with death/eternal torment/ separation from God's love, or whatever,if you choose a route other than the one God supposedly set forth in the Bible?
Basically, there is no true "free will." You can choose to do everything God requires in acknowledgment that "Your ass is His," or you can die/suffer eternal torment/ be separated from God's love.
So what if you don't want to follow God's rules as set forth in the Bible? Are you suffering the consequences of exercising your right to "free will" or are you being punished?
To punish, as defined by Merriam Webster's Collegiate dictionary is:1.a: to impose a penalty for a fault, offense, or violation (b) to inflict a penalty for the commision of (an offense) in retribution or retaliation 2 a to deal with roughly or harshly (b) to inflict injury on: hurt
punishment is: 1. The act of punishing 2 (a) suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution (b)a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure 3: severe, rough, or disasterous treatment.
According to the scriptures, people who have purposely chosen not to serve God have suffered consequences (or punishments,depending on your outlook) and also people who have never served the God of the Bible have suffered consequences/punishments.
Genesis 3:16 says "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow ...
The "he" is Jehovah, and "he" said "[I] (emphasis mine) will greatly multiply thy sorrow"
So, to me, this fits the definition of punish because it's imposing a penalty for a violation, and it's a punishment because "greatly multiply[ing] thy sorrow is "suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution" and is a "penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure."
Eve was decieved, and she was punished by pain in childbirth, relationship problems, and by being prevented from eating from the second tree. Adam chose to partake of the fruit of the tree by exercising free will (evidentally, he wasn't deceived, but ate anyway when Eve encouraged him to), and he was punished by having to spend the rest of his life toiling outside the garden (and Eve got a quadruple whammy because she suffered this too), and by being prevented from partaking from the second tree.
Both were prevented from eating of the second tree, about which Genesis 3:22 states "And the LORD GOD said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, [lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the LORD GOD sent him forth from the garden of Eden to till the ground from whence he was taken.](emphasis mine).
Jehovah was the one who prevented the two from partaking of the second tree, which would have imparted eternal life to them. It was a direct intervention, according to the scriptures, NOT the natural outcome of a "consequence."
The same precedence against free will carries over into the NT, if you take it literally. Jesus said "He that is not with me is against me." There really is no neutral position allowed.
Why? Well, because "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand."
Back then, some of the folks were inclined toward worshipping goddesses and gods that were not Jehovah. There is a theme throughout the Bible of prophets and such denouncing this worship and tearing down the altars and sacramental poles and the like, and genocide being committed on nations of "unbelievers". What better way to promote this new faith over existing religions the followers of Jehovah felt were faulty, than to demonize the serpent (a sign of divinity to the worshippers of "foreign gods"), claim the serpent as their own when the first tactic didn't work (the wilderness incidence of the copper colored serpent, and Moses changing the staff into a big serpent that gobbled up the Egyptian priests little serpents) and to subjagate women in general (ever since Eve). And it wasn't just an OT problem. Chapter 17 and 18 of Acts show the rivalry pretty well, too. -
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The Passion of the Christ questions (Spoilers within)
by recoveringjw inspoilers?
for anybody who knows the story of jesus, it should be like watching titanic---the ship sinks, get over it.
spouse: "nobody in the movie saw the hooded creature.
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Cicatrix
"The hooded pale man was really a women, who played satan. That wasn't a maggot, it was the tale of a snake, you'll notice the snake comes out from under his clothes and Jesus stomps it."
And once again, we see the tired old theme of woman as the purveyor of evil, lol.
It's interesting if you study mythology that at one time, snakes were considered divine, as were women. It was only with the advent of the sky god mythology that both became demonised. Literally and figuratively. -
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Got this email out of the blue the other day
by mkr32208 inmark,.
at one time in my career i was exposed to an apostate tape.
i found it very unsettling and began to wonder about the truth.
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Cicatrix
"I no longer believe that this religion is the truth. I am not trying to change your beliefs. You are happy with them and welcome to believe whatever you wish. I choose not to, my reasons are my own, there are many of them not just one."
I told my mother the same thing awhile back. It's an odd situation- as for years SHE tried to convince me that the WTS is a cult.
I DA'd myself (refused to give the elders a reason), and she started up her Bible study shortly thereafter! She told me she just can't learn about the Bible studying it on her own, and that she is mostly doing it because she has become friends with her study conductor over the years and enjoys their weekly visit.
She pressed me for more information as to why I left, but I've continued to refuse to give her any. I told her that if I were to give her any reasons, that I would be living up to the WTS definition of an "apostate," and that if she continued to associate with me afterwards, it would affect her relationship with her congregation and friends-especially since she has told them repeatedly that she will never shun any of her children.
What's really odd is that she questions the beliefs openely when she is with me, yet is so afraid that everything she has learned could be true. She questions me about specific things, and I just tell her to do her own research if she really wants to know.
It's all very frustrating.Sometimes I think she's doing it to manipulate me (there are other nonJW issues involved), yet I also distinctly remember what it felt like to be a "true believer." I know I can't go back though, and I can't pretend just so I can maintain a relationship with her. Being a JW nearly killed me.
If she goes hard line and demands answers to her questions, I will stand my ground. I DA'd with full knowledge that I might someday be shunned by my mother. As painful as it will be if it happens, I won't return to the WTS. I will let her know that my door is always open to her, though.