Posts by Cicatrix

19

Jephthah's daughter

by Cicatrix in

so the wts taught us all that jephthah sacrificed his daughter to jehovah's service at the temple.

well, that's not what i found out today.

i was reading a site on archeology, and they mentioned that jephthah had offered up his daughter as a burnt offering, and that this was sometimes practiced by the canaanites.the article said that some of the israelites had initially settled peacefully amongst the canannites about two hundred years before joshua conquered jericho, and that this is an example of how they adopted some of the canaanite practices.

Cicatrix

The origination of the saying "The Devil made me do it," no doubt;)

That's really interesting. I don't know why it didn't occur to me that the accounts in 2 Samuel and 1 Chronicles were one and the same. Maybe because of the different census numbers. I just thought David was a little obsessive about counting, lol.

I've learned just a little from a few sources about polytheism and the Israelites. Do you have any recommendations for good sources I might be able to find outside of a university library?

Also, I have a chart that lists the Bible books in a loose chronological order, and I was thinking of reading it chronologically.Do you know if those charts are generally anywhere near accurate? I've read the Bible a few times from "front to back." I thought maybe if I mixed it up a bit, I might learn some new things. I tend to get bored and stop reading for meaning going from cover to cover.

19

Jephthah's daughter

by Cicatrix in

so the wts taught us all that jephthah sacrificed his daughter to jehovah's service at the temple.

well, that's not what i found out today.

i was reading a site on archeology, and they mentioned that jephthah had offered up his daughter as a burnt offering, and that this was sometimes practiced by the canaanites.the article said that some of the israelites had initially settled peacefully amongst the canannites about two hundred years before joshua conquered jericho, and that this is an example of how they adopted some of the canaanite practices.

Cicatrix

"Or, perhaps more exactly, the unqualified "wrath" (qeçeph) is to be understood as a power superior to individual gods, along the lines of Greek nemesis."

This would make all those contests of divine backing make much more sense. Especially the one in which Jehovah didn't win, and it was mentioned anyway. That always made me curious.

In regards to the vow, I found this scripture at Deuteronomy 23:21-23 "When you make a vow to the Lord , be prompt in doing whatever it is you promised him, for the Lord demands that you promptly fulfill your vows; it is a sin if you don't (But it is not a sin if you refrain from vowing). Once you make the vow, you must be careful to do as you have said, for it was your own choice, and you have vowed to the Lord your God."

This indicates that one could NOT change the vow to be more suitable. Once a vow was made, it was to be carried out AS it was made.

24

They Aren't Your Friends

by metatron in

when i announced, at the c.o's meeting with the elders, that i was quiting and giving up, the brother who gave the prayer.

nearly burst into tears.. a couple months later, him and his wife pass us in the hall and hall and sit down in front of us: not a single glance or hello.

or hint of recognition.

Cicatrix

"I once organized a large outting of Witness adults in bowling, etc. in one congregation and got a "this is fun, why didn't we do this before"

How did you ever get away with it?

There was a tradition in our area of having a square dance every year. The people from three different congregations were invited. The kids really looked forward to it, because it was held in December or January, when all of their school mates were busy with the holidays. Well, the year before I left, some higher ups decided to put an end to the square dances. We had talks at all the halls about not organising large gatherings. Their definition of "large gathering"? More than two families! I heard one young person actually say "So now they're going to take THAT away from us, too." Shortly thereafter, several teens quit going to meetings.

There is no motivation for JWs as a group to form cohesive relationships because it is actively discouraged by the leadership.

As far as JWs being "friends," I learned which ones really were my friends when I disassociated myself. Most of my former "friends" give me a look of judgement or outright hate when they see me. Others look sad or will smile and give me a little wave. Some have sent messages to me that I am welcome at their place anytime, and others have come right up and talked to me in public. The ones who still acknowledge my existence in some way, I count among my friends. But they are a rare breed.

19

Jephthah's daughter

by Cicatrix in

so the wts taught us all that jephthah sacrificed his daughter to jehovah's service at the temple.

well, that's not what i found out today.

i was reading a site on archeology, and they mentioned that jephthah had offered up his daughter as a burnt offering, and that this was sometimes practiced by the canaanites.the article said that some of the israelites had initially settled peacefully amongst the canannites about two hundred years before joshua conquered jericho, and that this is an example of how they adopted some of the canaanite practices.

Cicatrix

Good points, Metatron.

When I saw the version that said burnt offering for the first time, I immediately assumed she died and they were grieving her.

And when Samuel was dedicated by his mother in her vow, it does specifically state that he was taken to the tabernacle.

19

Jephthah's daughter

by Cicatrix in

so the wts taught us all that jephthah sacrificed his daughter to jehovah's service at the temple.

well, that's not what i found out today.

i was reading a site on archeology, and they mentioned that jephthah had offered up his daughter as a burnt offering, and that this was sometimes practiced by the canaanites.the article said that some of the israelites had initially settled peacefully amongst the canannites about two hundred years before joshua conquered jericho, and that this is an example of how they adopted some of the canaanite practices.

Cicatrix

"So if Jephta's daughter really did get crispy critters, she would then just be one of a long list of victims.
(my granddaughter included)
Wouldn't surprise me if they really did have a human bbq."

I'm sorry to hear that, Avenger:(

"Maybe she was lesbian and enjoying it. With all respect."

That's a possibility, since it's a secondary issue to the burnt offering issue.

bewail means 1. To wail over 2. To express deep sorrow for usu. by wailing and lamentation

wail means 1. to express sorrow audibly: lament 2. to express dissatisfaction plaintively: complain ~ vt archaic 1. to say or express plaintively

Perhaps she went to the mountains with her friends to break the news to them about her fate. That would definitely be a reason for grieving, and no doubt there was a lot of sorrow and wailing over the fact that their friend (or lover)was about to lose her life before she could become a "real woman" (by that culture's standards) through marriage and childbearing.

The "four days" thing reminds me of the Dionysian mysteries, too, whereby women would leave their families for a while every year and practice religious rites. Some have conjectured that these were sexual, and possibly lesbian in nature also.

LOL "Abraham" er Carmel. Yes, please do explain. :@

19

Jephthah's daughter

by Cicatrix in

so the wts taught us all that jephthah sacrificed his daughter to jehovah's service at the temple.

well, that's not what i found out today.

i was reading a site on archeology, and they mentioned that jephthah had offered up his daughter as a burnt offering, and that this was sometimes practiced by the canaanites.the article said that some of the israelites had initially settled peacefully amongst the canannites about two hundred years before joshua conquered jericho, and that this is an example of how they adopted some of the canaanite practices.

Cicatrix

Btw, thanks again, Narkissos:)

19

Jephthah's daughter

by Cicatrix in

so the wts taught us all that jephthah sacrificed his daughter to jehovah's service at the temple.

well, that's not what i found out today.

i was reading a site on archeology, and they mentioned that jephthah had offered up his daughter as a burnt offering, and that this was sometimes practiced by the canaanites.the article said that some of the israelites had initially settled peacefully amongst the canannites about two hundred years before joshua conquered jericho, and that this is an example of how they adopted some of the canaanite practices.

Cicatrix

"When the king of Moab saw that the battle was going against him, he took with him seven hundred swordsmen to break through, opposite the king of Edom; but they could not. Then he took his firstborn son who was to succeed him, and offered him as a burnt offering on the wall. And great wrath came upon Israel, so they withdrew from him and returned to their own land."

Wow. This is an interesting translation. The KJV says "And there was great indignation against Israel: and they departed from him, and returned to their own land."

The Living Bible says "Then he took his oldest son, who was to have been the next king, and to the horror of the Israeli army, killed him and sacrificed him as a burnt offering upon the wall. So the army of Israel turned back in disgust to their own land."

If you peruse the different battle scenes in the Bible, it usually states Jehovah was with them and they prevailed, or Jehovah was not with them, and they lost. In that context,it does seem that they lost the battle because the wrath came from the other god. Jehovah is silent on the matter here. Unusual for him.The last one and the WTS version seem to be attempting to explain away the fact that the Israelites lost the battle and Jehovah was silent on the matter.

This loss of a contest with other gods happened in one of the contests between Jehovah's prophets and those of another god at one point, too, although I'm not sure which god it was.We often heard about the contest between the Baal worshippers and Jehovah's worshippers at meetings, but never this other account;)

19

Jephthah's daughter

by Cicatrix in

so the wts taught us all that jephthah sacrificed his daughter to jehovah's service at the temple.

well, that's not what i found out today.

i was reading a site on archeology, and they mentioned that jephthah had offered up his daughter as a burnt offering, and that this was sometimes practiced by the canaanites.the article said that some of the israelites had initially settled peacefully amongst the canannites about two hundred years before joshua conquered jericho, and that this is an example of how they adopted some of the canaanite practices.

Cicatrix

"Notice that the original vow applies to "whoever comes out" -- be it human or animal, male or female, virgin or not. So it cannot mean "virginity vow". The narrative does not redefine the import of the original vow into another."

Interesting. Thanks, Narkissos.

Do you have any more information on the burnt sacrifice vows, or Israelites making vows to God in general? This is a new concept for me I'd like to learn more about.

Also, what was the importance of the custom of lamenting Jephthah's daughter "four days of the year." Was this just a way of justifying an already existing older tradition?

Edited to add:
I noticed that you said it was an older tradition. Was this perhaps an attempt to syncretize a custom that could not be eradicated?

19

Jephthah's daughter

by Cicatrix in

so the wts taught us all that jephthah sacrificed his daughter to jehovah's service at the temple.

well, that's not what i found out today.

i was reading a site on archeology, and they mentioned that jephthah had offered up his daughter as a burnt offering, and that this was sometimes practiced by the canaanites.the article said that some of the israelites had initially settled peacefully amongst the canannites about two hundred years before joshua conquered jericho, and that this is an example of how they adopted some of the canaanite practices.

Cicatrix

So the WTS taught us all that Jephthah sacrificed his daughter to Jehovah's service at the temple. Well, that's not what I found out today. I was reading a site on archeology, and they mentioned that Jephthah had offered up his daughter as a burnt offering, and that this was sometimes practiced by the Canaanites.The article said that some of the Israelites had initially settled peacefully amongst the Canannites about two hundred years before Joshua conquered Jericho, and that this is an example of how they adopted some of the Canaanite practices.

I checked two non-WTS versions of the scripture at Judges 11:30-38, and sure enough, both versions said "burnt offering."One version had a foot note that stated that it's not clear if Jephthah killed her or kept his vow by "consecrating her to perpetual virginity." Being as women then were only deemed worthy through childbearing, I could see how it would be a great sacrifice either way. But why not use the term, sacrifice, instead of burnt offering? That seems very specific to me. Also, in the account of Samuel, there is no mention of the word "burnt offering." In fact, his parents offered up a sacrifice when they took him to the Temple.

Does anyone else have any info about this?

Thanks

48

Were There Any Scriptures or Understandings That U Just Couldn't Comprehend

by minimus in

jw
friends

i never could explain why god "allowed" solomon to have a number of wives and concubines yet he never even got a reprimand!

or why birthdays are forbidden but anniverseries aren't.....what about you?

?

Cicatrix

" Why, if Solomon committed "apostasy" against God, then why is there a book named after him in the Bible?;"

I've always wondered why, if Solomon was the wisest man on earth, did he stop worshipping Jehovah?