here and there a newbie will post and its obvious that they think that this site is for jw's and not ex's.
did any of you ever come across an apostate site on accident?
what about the first time you came here?
I came on this board after a friend had mentioned the media coverage of the sex abuse cases.I was uncomfortable at first--those old tapes started playing in my head about apostate material. Then I started reading the posts and realised that a lot of people had experienced what I had, and I realised that this is a place that I need to come to very much right now.
Thanks to all who have responded to my posts and offered me advice:)
Cicatrix
edited to say "dang i posted it in the wrong thread" .
just read this post by dan and wondered just how many of us are still facing the same things
since leaving the wt i occasionally have mental visions of dying a terrible, violent death.
Amen, Scully. After the elders received my dissassociation letter, they approached my mother to find out why I left. She said she wasn't sure, but maybe it was because of the way I was treated by the congregation members.Their response--"Well, we didn't see anything wrong with the way the friends were treating her." Then they read her a scripture about ones who leave losing Jehovah's spirit(ooh-there's that scary warning again).She pointed out the fact that the congregation hasn't grown in years, maybe because of the way the members treat each other.She suggested that maybe it was time they start noticing that this was happening, because if they didn't, they would just keep losing members until there was no congregation left. She offered them a paper that she found while researching a project for a college course that discussed behavioral reasons why Jehovah's Witnesses were a threat to societal structure--hehe.They declined to take it for some reason.Oh,did I mention it was written by a former elder:)
I find myself keeping a distance from people,also. Partially because of what I went through at the kingdom hall and partially because of living in an unhealthy marriage(which was also related to the borg somewhat). I've been countering this by taking college courses that focus on human communication and psychology, and doing a lot of journal writing and asking questions on this board that I always wondered about but was afraid to ask with Big Brother hanging over my head.I've also confided in some people about the spiritual and physical abuse, and they have kindly given me things to read that have helped. But people still seem to know that there is something up-especially those that have dealt with abuse victims. Like Brummie said, most are very patient and understanding, especially if they know or suspect your background.But still, I think it's prudent to be careful about self-disclosure.
One thing that helped me, oddly enough, was a book called "The Artists Way". It ascertains that in order to live your life to its most full and have the ability to really create great art and writing, one must first deal with things from your past that are holding you back. It has writing exercises in it, and encourages the use of a journal. Doing the exercises and journal writing were actually my catalyst for getting out of the borg. As I wrote, I realized that I would be happier if I was dead forever, than I would be if I was living forever in paradise with people who were constantly nitpicking, trying to catch me doing some horrible sin, and, like Dan said, "turned every situation into a test of faith in Jah and the organization."
As far as the Job rationality goes(oh how I so remember that one), look at it from another angle.Did Jehovah remove his protection from Job's family because they were bad?No--so why are they even trying to prove that removal of spirit argument using this account?That takes things out of context big time, and witnesses are really good at nailing others for taking things out of context:) Are Jehovah's Witnesses really protected in some special way? Are their families free of death, accidents, and illness? No. And what was the reasoning from the platform on that question? Oh, yeah, that "time and unforseen occurence befall us all-including Jehovah's people."So, they argued the Job issue from both sides of their mouths--anything to prove what they want to prove. But does it make it so?Did it make it so in Jesus' time when the religious leaders of his day were adding to the letter of the law and burdening the people with rules they were incapable of following(sound familiar?)
Yes Scully and Dan, alot of us are struggling with it.It's one of those cult tactics that is so useful.It's used precisely to put up a wall between indoctrinates and others.It's what allows the control to be so effective. We've gotten a lot farther than others who are still in the borg and can't let themselves see all the dissension and pain, because we realize we've been affected.So we'll deal with it in alot of creative and different ways because we are free to do so. Isn't it great to have the freedom to talk about it?:)
Well, gotta get off my soapbox and go to bed now.
Cicatrix
okay, maybe i'm ignorant, but i can't stop thinking about this.. it's recorded in the bible that jehovah gave solomon great wisdom.
so why did he eventually turn away from jehovah and start serving the gods of his foreign born wives?it would seem to me that that increased wisdom from jehovah would make him more likely to continue to serve jehovah faithfully.. this also brings to mind the account of adam and eve and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.. i considered this from the angle that solomon used his free will and chose to oppose jehovah.
but is free will really "free" if you are punished with death for disobeying the creator???.
I understand what you are trying to say, Zech., but I'm not at the point you are, probably has something to do with my former spiritual advisors deciding that I have lost God's holy spirit simply because I no longer choose to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses.
I haven't cursed God or done anything intrinsically immoral, yet they, imperfect humans, have taken it upon themselves to decide my fate.I don't feel like I've "lost God's blessing" just because I have a few doubts. So therein lies the controversy for me.I just really don't think a God of love would turn their back on you if you had a few doubts. Seems to me a God of love would invite you to investigate all you want until you find him.
okay, maybe i'm ignorant, but i can't stop thinking about this.. it's recorded in the bible that jehovah gave solomon great wisdom.
so why did he eventually turn away from jehovah and start serving the gods of his foreign born wives?it would seem to me that that increased wisdom from jehovah would make him more likely to continue to serve jehovah faithfully.. this also brings to mind the account of adam and eve and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.. i considered this from the angle that solomon used his free will and chose to oppose jehovah.
but is free will really "free" if you are punished with death for disobeying the creator???.
???I'm sorry, Paduan, I don't understand. Can you explain more simply for me?
Thanks
Cicatrix
okay, maybe i'm ignorant, but i can't stop thinking about this.. it's recorded in the bible that jehovah gave solomon great wisdom.
so why did he eventually turn away from jehovah and start serving the gods of his foreign born wives?it would seem to me that that increased wisdom from jehovah would make him more likely to continue to serve jehovah faithfully.. this also brings to mind the account of adam and eve and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.. i considered this from the angle that solomon used his free will and chose to oppose jehovah.
but is free will really "free" if you are punished with death for disobeying the creator???.
Thanks for clarifying, Lulu.Your comment triggered a knee-jerk reaction because it sounded to me like comments I'd heard before that were prefaced with "maybe you need to be a more submissive wife, pray harder, go out in service more..." you know the drill.Well, the problem was, I let everyone else do my thinking for me for way too long, and now I'm trying to learn to question things from my own perspective.Not easy when you've spent 20 years as a true believer.
as most of you know, i have been inactive for about 2 1/2 yrs and completely out for about 7 months.
i am debating on wether or not to write a letter of da to the org or not.
in some ways i just want closure, and on the other hand i dont want to play by their rules.
I wrote a DA letter because I was already being investigated for possible DFing offenses. I have no family in the Borg, though, or I probably would have just hung in there for their sake if I didn't.I had few friends left, due to concerned "warnings" by conscientious Christians who were in fact spreading slanderous lies, little beknownst to them.I knew I was done with it all, and I planned to celebrate holidays. A quick peek at the Elder's Manual online informed me that yes, indeedy, I could be disfellowshipped for putting decorations up.I was also tired of hearing "we miss you so much at meetings" at every public place I encountered congregation members(funny, some of them lived right down the road and never came over to visit).I wouldn't give them that kind of power over me anymore.I was going out on my own terms.
My "meeting" with the elders was held on my porch with no prior warning that they were even coming. I refused to discuss why I was leaving with them.They wanted to know if I was attending another church(I am not).They asked me if I understood what this meant. I said that I did.They asked if they could study with my children (I thought this kind of odd, since they wouldn't give me any help at all with them when I was a pub). I told them no. That was the end of it. They announced it the next week.
The impact on the congregation was exactly as I expected it would be. They were shocked, to say the least.I've seen several of them in public, and they find it very hard not to come and talk to me.Some disregard the WT dictates and say hello when they see me.I hear comments through the grapevine from others(amazing how even though they can't talk to you, they manage to get messages to you through mutual aquaintances that they can talk to. These aqaintances tend to filter out the bad stuff for me).
I no longer care what kind of crap the "loving" friends want to spread about me now (they will have to stand in line behind my in-laws, who have been blasting me ever since I married into their family). Certain prominent congregation members were doing it long before I left. It hurt much more coming from supposed friends than it does from new enemies(in their view, not mine), especially since I was trying so hard then to meet up with the impossible standards that kept changing.
Now I'm free to think and act however I want to. I'm looking at things from lots of different angles and forming my own perception of things.I'm meeting interesting people, and I don't have to constantly look over my shoulder for a Witness who will tsk tsk me for "bad associations".I've shared with my family and a few others what it is like to leave a high control group, and they have been very supportive.As has everyone on this board(which I can surf without fear of reprisal).
I joined the Jehovah's Witnesses at my own free will. I left of my own free will. As far as I'm concerned, the DA letter was nothing but the dissolution contract of a deal gone sour.And now I can invoke it selectively against those who attempt to hurt me, or ignore it if I so choose if some choose to break the rules that They still follow.So who's in control now?:)
okay, maybe i'm ignorant, but i can't stop thinking about this.. it's recorded in the bible that jehovah gave solomon great wisdom.
so why did he eventually turn away from jehovah and start serving the gods of his foreign born wives?it would seem to me that that increased wisdom from jehovah would make him more likely to continue to serve jehovah faithfully.. this also brings to mind the account of adam and eve and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.. i considered this from the angle that solomon used his free will and chose to oppose jehovah.
but is free will really "free" if you are punished with death for disobeying the creator???.
Lol Farkel- Great thread.You took the thoughts on Adam and Eve right out of my head (maybe that explains my recurrent migraines), with some more points to add. The Bible says that Eve was deceived.She was fooled man, utterly stumped. So why did she die forever and ever (she grieved the holy spirit?) for something she didn't even entirely understand she did? Also, Adam was the head, so why did he take the fruit from Eve on her prompting? He was the boss, he could have said no. Instead he ate, then blamed her when God came calling.But like you said, why did they even have to be tested in the first place if God trusted that he made a perfect human race that would serve him without fail.And why even offer them free will if it wasn't okay to have a difference of opinion?
I love your point on the disappearance of the garden of Eden. I'm with you-if I saw an angel with a flaming sword, you bet your boots I'd be compelled to believe and obey. Why are we supposed to go on blind faith and a vague threat that if we don't comply, we will be roasted at armageddon? Especially when there are numerous versions of what is the "true" way to serve God properly(I've been figuratively killed by people of a number of religions for not believing as they do).It's kind of a paradox-we're supposed want to serve a God that we can't see, while rejecting "abnormal" fleshly erotic feelings that we poor imperfect schmucks end up having occasionally from the things we DO see.And meanwhile try to cultivate a relationship with a God who likes to play hide and seek.
It all gives me a headache. But I still wonder why the concept of God is out there, and if one or more exsist.Did God invent humans, or did humans invent God? It's the chicken and egg thing.
Right now, I'm enjoying an audio version of one of Stephen Hawking's works.Thanks for the recommendation-it makes my drive to school insightful.
to be able to properly "encourage one another, more so as you behold the end drawing near", we as jw's were instructed to do the following: .
(1) stay after the meeting for "upbuilding association", and .
(2) rather than talk about mundane things of life, discuss the finer points of the meeting just held.
The guys at my former hall talked about what a shame it was that all of the sisters wore skirts that went down to their ankles after they got married:)
okay, maybe i'm ignorant, but i can't stop thinking about this.. it's recorded in the bible that jehovah gave solomon great wisdom.
so why did he eventually turn away from jehovah and start serving the gods of his foreign born wives?it would seem to me that that increased wisdom from jehovah would make him more likely to continue to serve jehovah faithfully.. this also brings to mind the account of adam and eve and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.. i considered this from the angle that solomon used his free will and chose to oppose jehovah.
but is free will really "free" if you are punished with death for disobeying the creator???.
Thanks St Satan,
I've never heard that angle before. I'm going to write down the title of the book you mentioned, and I'll look for it after I finish the title that Farkel recommended on science a few months back.
I want to approach this from every angle.This question has bugged me since childhood.
i have several little nieces and nephews in my life.
in doing so i have watched them grow from being these little babies, to these children that run all over my house when they visit.
they are a lot of fun, but some of them have the most nasty of habits.
Lol, Dragon.Poor guy.There was a sixty year old sister in my former cong. that looked seven months pregnant. Skinny little arms and legs and a watermelon for a belly(but she was very sweet, mind you--I mean no offense with the description).
Good policy, Freedom. I was preggos five times, and let me tell ya, after the first, ignorance on the part of others was bliss.People who come across a pregnant woman often forget that there is a woman attached to the abdomen. I swear, they start talking to you like you are five or something, as if being gravid dissolves all of your brain cells and renders you incapable of an intelligent conversation.Sure, those hormones kick in sometimes, but for the most part,not much changes in the gray matter.Luckily, I could hide it pretty well until I was about seven months along.
I absolutely hated having my stomach touched and being asked "Oh when are you due?"My pat response was "Never. It's never coming out."
So your policy not only prevents foot-in-mouth disease, it also helps out women who are so tired of not being able to see their feet, they would rather talk about any other subject under the sun.Believe me, most women who want to discuss their impending joy will bring the subject up themselves
