i have heard this from several witnesses.. the assert that it is insensitive to expose someone's faith as invalid without offering another more valid spiritual path.. "the jehovah's witnesses don't have the truth, because xyz.".
^ i have been accused of offering a disservice because i can't offer the answers to the questions that i am debunking as fradulent.. has anyone else ran into this obscure argument?.
-sab.
Babies have pacifiers - adults have religion. Ultimately I find religion and faith a crutch. The realities of our mortality cause people to run to the comfort of needing to believe that a divine power is looking after them. And that this life isn't all there is....you will be rewarded with a second life.
When you threaten one's current belief system that has comforted them, they would require a replacement.
True religion is an oxymoron.
so, i recently finished reading "the god delusion" by richard dawkins.
i read it with a certain amount of hesitation.
after all, i am still recovering from my disappointment at realizing that the wts is not god's organization.
I've read the God Delusion a couple times and do not agree that Dawkins was being intellectually dishonest. His use of the word faith is accurate with the dictionary meaning of the word: "strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof."
He systematically went thru all the arguments for a god and supplied reasoning for why they are false. In effect, debunking the supposed evidence for a god. So then in turn, his definition of faith is in line with his entire argument, which is: there is no evidence of a god and those with "faith" believe because they want to believe. They believe in belief.
What evidence is there for a god? What is this god you believe in...how would you describe him/her/it? What proof or justifications do you have for describing god in that way? I think the suggestion is simply you couldn't possibly KNOW there is a god, let alone begin to describe exactly what this god is. Fact is if you believe we were created by a higher intelligence, the default answer is not a god that resembles us, or god of the bible. IT could just as easily be a higher intelligent alien race that has existed before us by millions of years. Your "god" you want to believe in may just be aliens and we are their petri dish. "God" doesn't seem like such a cuddly idea if that were the case.
"as he is a god of love.. these things serve to protect individuals aswell as the congregations.
as a parent i fully understand the concept of wanting my children to choose their friends wisely, to be careful about literature they read & so on & would i cast them out for being wayward?
yes, i have, & they learnt their lesson & were welcomed back with immediacy the minute they made the necessary changes.
AuntBee...it gets even nuttier. Believe or not, my parents actually consulted a lawyer on their rights to kick their 17-yr-old daughter out of their house. They feel they have justification because they stretch and bend reality. But it is absurd...my little sister is your typical 17-yr-old...not a bad girl AT ALL. She just wants to fit in at school, have a boyfriend and hang out with her buddies. These are NOT bad kids. But since she doesn't want the "truth" they've made it up in their heads that they are dealing with a crack dealer. It is all so very sad. She is currently living with my oldest sibling's family (not in the religion) because they couldn't work it out with their youngest daughter not wanting the religion. She is going thru major depression issues and they refuse to acknowledge it would have anything to do with their fundamentalistic and stringent belief system. Off the charts nuttery.
i think we do, we need to cut out the crap and leave the good stuff.. things to cut:.
gay people deserve death.
flood story.
Other things to cut...slavery is good, rape is good (even giving up your own daughters for it), infanticide is good, genocide is good...
But if we cut all this stuff all that would be left is enough text to fill a Post-It. "In the beginning...the end."
"as he is a god of love.. these things serve to protect individuals aswell as the congregations.
as a parent i fully understand the concept of wanting my children to choose their friends wisely, to be careful about literature they read & so on & would i cast them out for being wayward?
yes, i have, & they learnt their lesson & were welcomed back with immediacy the minute they made the necessary changes.
Know exactly what you're talking about AuntBee. I'm currently struggling with this shunning. Come from a big family with 7 siblings, all raised in the "truth". Hardcore too, as my father has been an elder since he was 18. But only 3 siblings have remained JWs. The 4 of us that have left are treated with the bare minimum of decency.
I just got married this summer and invited the entire family of course. But the only ones to show up from my family are the ones that have left the Borg. I didn't even receive a response whether they would come or not from the others. In fact, they didn't even acknowledge receiving the invitation.
Even worse, my oldest sister has 3 children. When her first son was born my mother told her this doozy, to paraphrase: "You know I will never be able to share the same amount of love for your child as my our other grandchildren (in the religion). Without the common love for Jehovah our love for him can't be as strong." Seriously, can you believe that? How these people consider this "loving" is absolutely insane.
Here's another....my youngest sister at the age of 17 is making a stand and has made it clear she doesn't want to go to meetings anymore. This just has happenened in the past 4 or 5 months. (Good for her...such progress! Took me years and years to get to that point.) Anyways, of course this has caused major tensions in their home. One evening turns out my father finds out one of my sister's friends smokes or did smoke weed. He asked her if she did and she said no. Well that wasn't good enough...he tells her she can't have any friends who would do such a thing. She refused to dump that person as a friend. So guess what? He kicked her out of the house at 11:30 at night stating he won't jeopardize his god's values and anyone living under his roof has to do the same. Who kicks their 17-year-old daughter out on the street near midnight over the actions of a third party? That is batshit.
You said it BroDan: "If my son became a bank robber and went to jail, I STILL wouldn't turn my back on him." Now THAT is what you call LOVE.
Crazy batshit JWs. Trying to filter this garbage on a day-to-day basis is difficult to say the least.
since starting to leave the jws about 10 years ago (i was a fader) i've spent plenty of time going over what i was taught, scrutinizing the bible and its history, and reading books like the god delusion for a fresh perspective.
i would say i've landed on the atheist side of things, though i don't like the word.
(we don't have one for non-stamp collectors...so why non-believers in a god?
@believingxjw: Yes I know not everyone wants to fight over their gods, and thank goodness for them. I offered it as a simplistic analogy that fits when you zoom out on today's world, this is what we have: major conflict between christians, jews and the muslims and we are all being taken for a ride by these "fighting" ones. They are threatening life on this planet. Our "sticks" have become far too big.
We would be better off without these made up answers and focus on a common goal of relying on ourselves to help ourselves. And not an invisible outside source which can't be proven is there.
I like how Sam Harris put it in "Letter to a Christian Nation":
"It is, therefore, not an exaggeration to say that if the city of New York were suddenly replaced by a ball of fire, some significant percentage of the American population would see a silver-lining in the subsequent mushroom cloud, as it would suggest to them that the best thing that is ever going to happen was about to happen: the return of Christ. It should be blindingly obvious that beliefs of this sort will do little to help us create a durable future for ourselves - socially, economically, environmentally, or geopolitically. Imagine the consequences if any significant component of the US government actually believed that the world was about to end and that its ending would be glorious. The fact that nearly half of the American population apparently believes this, purely on the basis of religion dogma, should be considered a moral and intellectual emergency."
since starting to leave the jws about 10 years ago (i was a fader) i've spent plenty of time going over what i was taught, scrutinizing the bible and its history, and reading books like the god delusion for a fresh perspective.
i would say i've landed on the atheist side of things, though i don't like the word.
(we don't have one for non-stamp collectors...so why non-believers in a god?
Since starting to leave the JWs about 10 years ago (I was a fader) I've spent plenty of time going over what I was taught, scrutinizing the bible and its history, and reading books like the God Delusion for a fresh perspective. I would say I've landed on the atheist side of things, though I don't like the word. (We don't have one for NON-stamp collectors...so why non-believers in a god?) I personally would rather be referred to as a humanist.
Anyhoo, I'm quite content to wait until all the evidence is in. Until then I'm not signing up for one of the god belief systems.
What gets me though is how atheists have been equated with the root of all evil. Of course this attack is mainly coming from the religious groups.
So what do you guys think of this simplistic analogy which to me describes how I as a humanist (or atheist if you must) views our place on this planet. Its a rough draft but you get the idea...
Analogy: Picture a group of people that find themselves on a deserted island, with amnesia, therefore no knowledge of anything about how they got there or why they are there.
One third of the group notices the SUN everyday and the warmth it brings, etc. They decide that must be a "god"...they must worship it.
Another third of the group notices the MOON and decide that must be "god" and therefore they're going worship the moon.
The SUN group and the MOON group eventually argue over their "gods" and who has the right one. They even begin to fight over it, hitting each other with sticks and coming to blows. Some people are injured, and some have even been killed.
The final third of the group, which didn't sign up for either the moon group and the sun group steps in and says: "whoa, whoa, whoa everybody. We DON'T know how or why we are here. But let's keep looking for clues and stop jumping to conclusions and fighting over it."
That non-believing third group represents what an ATHEIST is trying to do today. Offer a voice of reason to stop the fighting over their assumed "gods". If everyone would abandon their made up story and we all continued to attempt to unravel the mysteries of the universe, this world would be MUCH better place. We may not find all the answers, but it sure is better than dividing into groups and fighting over our "guesses".
Thoughts? And thanks for reading.
i know this is a pointless question, but what if this happened:.
you came home from work one day, sat down, and turned on the tv.
there is a sudden announcement that the un has banned all religion.
You're right Brodan...a pointless question. BUT I'd like to play along and let my imagination run with a dash of conspiracy. Don't take this seriously, but what if?
It is known that CT Russell at least associated or was a freemason...even was quoted as saying he was one and knew the handshakes. Okay, so freemasons are supposedly part of the mysterious Illuminati.
The Illuminati are alleged to be the primary motivational forces encouraging global governance, a one-world religious ethic, and centralized control of the world’s economic systems. Organizations such as the United Nations, the International Monetary Fund, the World Bank, and the International Criminal Court are seen as tentacles of the Illuminati. According to the Illuminati conspiracy, the Illuminati are the driving force behind efforts to brainwash the gullible masses through thought control and manipulation of beliefs, through the press, the educational curriculum, and the political leadership of the nations.Many world leaders (the Bush family, Tony Blair blah blah) are said to be freemasons and therefore Illuminati, working on their master plan of a one world government. Which eventually would include getting rid of religion.
So, since the Watchtower's roots are based in freemasonry...what if it ultimately up the food chain it IS Illuminati? Maybe just maybe then the Watchtowers dudes are making predictions of this because they are part of the plan to control and manipulate society.
A recent thread pointed out some new specific predictions by the WT regarding the timeline of removing religion. Suggesting it starts with the Vatican. The Pope sure seems on uneasy grounds these days. The Illumaniti are coming! (cue the ominous music)
Okay that was silly. Now back to reality.
i have been going nuts looking for a recent watchtower quote i know i have saved 'somewhere' !.
it was posted not to long ago here i remember.
something about not persisting in a thought that is out of harmony with the gb & fds etc.... help!.
Yes Aussie...please do post them if you can. Curious to see what it says.
