Posts by corpusdei

23

Who is your hero?

by HintOfLime in

personally, as a computer programmer, my hero is a bit odd perhaps - gordon ramsey.

i think gordon ramsey is awesome.

no nonsense - he tells boring, lazy, mediocre people that they are mediocre, and passionately tells them what they are doing wrong... because he wants them to do better.

That I've met? Probably my grandfather. That was the hardest man I've ever known. Just as an example, one time he took my brother and I, I must have been 13 or 14, to Tallulah Gorge on a day trip and we started looking around for places to hike down to the one of the areas that's more off the map, so there wouldn't be as many people around and we could enjoy it a bit more. Now keep in mind this man was 87 at the time. After somewhat intentionally missing several "No hiking beyong this point" signs posted here and there, we find an out of the way spot and start making our way down. Now this was not a gentle path, it was more a deer trail and there were several points where we were hanging onto trees to keep from sliding down the incline. We finally get down to the bottom and we're poking around and having a good old time, when one of the park rangers walks out of the bush and calls us over. Apparently that sign we ... um ... somehow missed ... yea ... was essentially a no tresspassing sign.

Mr. Park Ranger informed us that the area we were in was off limits due to safety issues, that by being there we could be arrested for tresspasing on federal property, and how, pray tell, did we get down without seeing the multiple signs posted? After describing where we were parked and what path we had taken, the Ranger takes off his hat, scratches his head a bit, looks up at where we had come from, looks back down at my grandfather and asks him "Sir, may I ask how old you are?" My grandad tells him and the Ranger chuckled for a minute before telling us "I don't think I could have made that path, and I sure hope I'm half as fit as you are when I get to be that age." then escorts us up a somewhat easier trail back to the car and tells us to be on our way. It was at that point, where I realized that my 87 year old grandfather has just hiked us down to commit federal tresspass, a path that a Park Ranger considered too difficult for himself, simply because he thought it might be nice, and then somehow managed to not get us arrested when we got busted - that was the point where I started holding that man in awe.

122

Judas and Unforgivable Sin

by corpusdei in

i'll be the first to admit that i haven't done the research on this one, and i can't remember the answer from my jw days - but there's something bothering me about the scenario of judas and his betrayal of jesus.. considering that the betrayal of jesus by judas was foretold in prophecy, it was essentially set in stone.

it was going to happen, it was an absolute because divine prophecy is correct.

judas had to betray jesus in order to fulfil prophecy.. now, i've always personally believed that a person does not sin by an act that they cannot avoid, but this seems like kind of the motherload of standing on the traintracks.

corpusdei

I have to say, I'm glad to see that this has generated as much discussion as it has, though in parts it seems more like I may have kicked a hornets nest a little ;) With the interest in this issue, I did end up going back and doing the research on it (at least as far as Witness theology goes). The full contents are here, but to summarize - there's nothing to point to Judas himself being pre-destined to be the one to betray Jesus. There is a scripturally supportable argument to be made, however, that the act of betrayal itself was prophesied and therefore inescapable. Jesus reference to Judas as the "son of destruction" (John 17:12) and that he would keep all from destruction save that one can be taken as a support that Judas had comitted an unforgivable sin.

10

I'm sorry I knocked on your door

by corpusdei in

jw
friends

they say the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

nowhere is that more evident, i think, than in the kingdom hall.

like so many others that i knew, i thought the watchtower society had it right, that their answers were the correct ones.

corpusdei

Thank you, all of you (and I include the rest of JWN as well). Even being gone from it as long as I have, that was ... more difficult than I expected.

10

I'm sorry I knocked on your door

by corpusdei in

jw
friends

they say the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

nowhere is that more evident, i think, than in the kingdom hall.

like so many others that i knew, i thought the watchtower society had it right, that their answers were the correct ones.

corpusdei

They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Nowhere is that more evident, I think, than in the Kingdom Hall. Like so many others that I knew, I thought the Watchtower society had it right, that their answers were the correct ones. I faithfully underlined the answers in every Watchtower and raised my hand at every question. For the better part of 16 years, 6 of those as an auxiliary pioneer, I went out in field service to knock on doors and spread the Good Word of Jehovah. It's even possible that I've met you on some Saturday morning or Tuesday afternoon. If I did - if I smiled up at you as a child and held out a Watchtower, or stood in my Goodwill suit and countered your argument with a carefully rehearsed line from Reasoning from the Scriptures, then I want to apologize to you. I was wrong, and I'm sorry.

Wow. I just did the math. Almost a year of continuous time spent in active field service. I couldn't have been a very good witness - I held many bible studies with different people, and convinced a few to come to the Kingdom Hall, but I can't recall anyone who actively joined because I introduced them. I'm thankful for that, looking back on it. I had good intentions and I thought I was doing the right thing, but if I knocked on your door then I apologize. It wasn't the Truth I was offering, it was poison. Carefully wrapped and lovingly presented, but poison nonetheless.

That Truth was a toxin that infected me and my family. I watched as it drove a wedge between my parents, and it's to my shame that I recall telling my father that he was a sinner and wouldn't get into Paradise if he didn't go to the Kingdom Hall. I watched my mother drip her venom in the ear of my family until it disintegrated, my father sidelined and made inconsequential in the eyes of his children because he didn't believe. My brother entered into a marriage and had a kid long before he was ready because it was the Good Witness thing to do. I still hold that the financial and emotional strain of that fed into the carelessness which turned my baby brother’s wife and child into a widow and fatherless boy. My little sister, too, so much smarter than my bother and I combined, chose to turn away from an education and marry someone whose career consisted of delivering home appliances on the rare occasion he wasn't leaching off my mother. After all, he was a good Witness boy. It made me a target in school, and the pain and confusion and isolation that came out of that time brought me to a point where I put my father’s revolver to my head, stared down the barrel and had a long, hard think about dying. I wish I could say that was only the one time, but there were more than a few points where being a Witness was less fun than being dead.

That was a long time ago, thank ... well, thank whoever. There's been a lot of time since then, with a lot of anger, pain, questioning and searching since then. I don't knock on doors anymore, and I like to think that I got out of that somewhat less damaged then some other people I know. There's Watchtower society baggage that I'm still discovering, though, and more that I'm not sure will ever completely go away. I love spending Christmas with my wife and her family, who have been so wonderfully loving and adoptive of me, but there's always a shadow of guilt when I help hang the ornaments. I love giving my wife presents on her birthday, but I watch my own approaching with a discomfort that has little to do with advancing age.

So, if I did knock on your door and roust you from a calm Saturday morning, then I am sorry and apologize with all my heart. I had good intentions, but those paving stones were taking me on a path that I'll always regret. As hard as I tried to convince you that I was right, years and hindsight have shown me how far from right I was. I want to thank each of you who closed the door in my face, each of you who told me you weren't interested or that you had your own religion. I was so very, very wrong, and I'll always be more grateful than you know that you didn't listen to me.

3

Jesus vs. Odin - I am greatly amused

by corpusdei in

.

corpusdei

14

Straddling the fence or leading a double life.

by garyneal in

jw
friends

a subject that i know a lot of you can relate to.

my wife admits to leading a double life in regards to her spiritual activities.

it comes with the territory, i suppose.

corpusdei

Was she raised in the Witnesses or did she join later in life?

I ask because, while the belief and control system that comes with the Witnesses can be difficult to shake in any case, a lot of the beliefs can be very ingrained and hard to move away from for people who were raised in that faith. I've been out for 10+ years, as an example, and I'm still uncomfortable attending birthday parties (or particularly celebrating my own). In my experience, because so many of the Witness practices go against social norms, that rationalization that you mention about the easter candy begins to develop almost as a defense or coping mechanism. It's a way for us to feel normal, almost, even if just tangentally.

Although I certainly don't have the total grasp of the situation that you would, there are a couple of things that I would suggest.

It does sound like she's on the fence, so she's certainly questioning things, and I would suggest gentle encouragement of that. Ask questions that would help lead her to see the world outside of the Witnesses. I say ask, because the Witness religion is set up so that outright criticism feeds back into evidence that the Witnesses are right, and pushing the issue can have the opposite effect that you're looking for.

The other thing is the sense of community. Again, looking back on my own experience, in some ways that fear was making a deeper fear of losing the community and support structure provided by the church. I didn't want to die and not be in Paradise on Earth(tm). So help her make or strengthen social ties outside of the Witnesses. Seeing that non-witnesses are not all the immoral, God-hating, threats to spiritual life and limb that the Witnesses teach will go a long way both in helping her find a path completely away as well as helping her start to de-wire the Witness programming. Ultimately, though, it will take time - especially if she was raised as a Witness. The mindset is so insidiously wrapped around every aspect of life that she may always be working against it on some level, no matter how far she distances herself from the church. So be patient and understanding, even if it's something that you don't understand.

I know I and many of the ex-JWs here on the board would be happy to talk with her, about some of the conflicts or questions she may be having, or even just about the experiences we've had in and outside of the Witnesses. Talking to someone who's seen both sides of the fence, who has seen that fishbowl inside and out, who's left and is still standing, can absolutely make a difference.

So good luck, and I wish both of you the best.

122

Judas and Unforgivable Sin

by corpusdei in

i'll be the first to admit that i haven't done the research on this one, and i can't remember the answer from my jw days - but there's something bothering me about the scenario of judas and his betrayal of jesus.. considering that the betrayal of jesus by judas was foretold in prophecy, it was essentially set in stone.

it was going to happen, it was an absolute because divine prophecy is correct.

judas had to betray jesus in order to fulfil prophecy.. now, i've always personally believed that a person does not sin by an act that they cannot avoid, but this seems like kind of the motherload of standing on the traintracks.

corpusdei

TheQuietOne>> Look into the various theodicies created over the years, which attempt to balance the existence of evil with an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevelant deity. There's quite a few. The only ones that I've never found any logical holes in are

a) God is defined by his perfection, therefore all that is not God must by necessity be imperfect. If this were a perfect world, we would be a facet of God.

b) God as duality. This is my favorite, because it causes Christians to make faces and throw things at me. Essentially it's the idea that God is the ultimate personification of both benevelance and malignancy - God and the Devil are two sides of the same coin. I personally think it makes the most sense, it does explain everything, but the idea of a schizopherenic God does tend to be slightly unnerving.

cantleave>>

Unforgivable sin? Did Judas deny the GB?

You owe me a new keyboard, there's coke all over mine now.

charlie brown jr>>

They were delighted and agreed to give him money to pay his cable bill.

See, I would have held out for a hell of a lot more than 30 pieces of silver. I mean, you're about to be party to the murder of the Son of God, after all. This ain't just turning over the local liquer store.

122

Judas and Unforgivable Sin

by corpusdei in

i'll be the first to admit that i haven't done the research on this one, and i can't remember the answer from my jw days - but there's something bothering me about the scenario of judas and his betrayal of jesus.. considering that the betrayal of jesus by judas was foretold in prophecy, it was essentially set in stone.

it was going to happen, it was an absolute because divine prophecy is correct.

judas had to betray jesus in order to fulfil prophecy.. now, i've always personally believed that a person does not sin by an act that they cannot avoid, but this seems like kind of the motherload of standing on the traintracks.

corpusdei

godrulz>>

Hello again!

The Old Testament does not prophesy him by name at all. Like other verses about Jesus that seem out of context, the Spirit applied some verses to Judas by way of illustration/parallel to an OT situation, NOT predictive prophecy like most assume

The Old Testament also does not prophesy Jesus, or King David, or virtually any other scriptural persona by name as I recall. And the devil's in those details, because I'm quite certain that through the course of history there are dozens upon dozens of people and situations that can be pointed to in order to fulfill prophecy. Similar to my comment to AGuest, if it had not been Judas, then I would have been asking about the Great Betrayer, Judas' brother Bob.

So, the Judas thing was not predictive prophecy nor set in stone

This goes against the entire nature of what prophecy is. If Divine prophecy is not set in stone, is not predictive then it is fallible. Which goes against more scripture than I can think off.

A verse about Jesus in Egypt is applied illustratively because it parallels a historical situation, but it is not truly predictive prophecy

Then it is not prophecy, it is illustration.

God does not choose a devil, but he freely became one later on.

Again, the name of the devil doesn't matter. Ultimately, even if there had not been a prophetic fortelling of the betrayer of Judas, Jesus had to die as a part of the ransom sacrifice. So the question remains - by acting as the negative force in the fulfillment of that prophecy, did Judas (or Pilate, or Judas' brother Bob, whoever) commit a sin, being that they would seem to be part of Divinely manipulated events?

122

Judas and Unforgivable Sin

by corpusdei in

i'll be the first to admit that i haven't done the research on this one, and i can't remember the answer from my jw days - but there's something bothering me about the scenario of judas and his betrayal of jesus.. considering that the betrayal of jesus by judas was foretold in prophecy, it was essentially set in stone.

it was going to happen, it was an absolute because divine prophecy is correct.

judas had to betray jesus in order to fulfil prophecy.. now, i've always personally believed that a person does not sin by an act that they cannot avoid, but this seems like kind of the motherload of standing on the traintracks.

corpusdei

AGuest>>

The prophecy never said WHO it was that would fulfill the act, but simply that the act would occur.

Judas could, at ANY time, have resisted the Adversary. He didn't. Had he done so, the Adversary would have simply moved on to another disciple... and another... and another... until he found one who allowed himself to be used.

True, but someone would fulfill the prophecy. If not Judas, then I'd be asking about Judas' brother Bob.

First, again, betrayal by JUDAS was not prophesied, foretold, OR pre-decided. That is a LIE and a false teaching. It was simply fore-KNOWN, so that it could be FORETOLD

You also go on to point out that prophecy is similar to us being able to predict the location of an ant travelling along a path. I'm perfectly willing to accept that, however, this viewpoint means that God's prophecy is predictave, but fallible. We ants could change course, and by doing so invalidate prophecy. And if God's prophecy is fallible, that casts doubt onto all other supposed infallible aspects.

Second, to say that Judas' sin was "unforgivable" is premature... and judgmental. Judas repented (which is why he tried to hang himself); however, it is not ours to say that such is insufficient.

It is common Christian theology that the act of suicide, or self-murder, is a cardinal sin - even though Judas only made the attempt. I will concede to calling it unforgivable - although the heart of my question is more if Judas comitted a sin by function as the instrument of prophetic fulfillment, you are correct that the facet of whether that sin was unforgivible is ultimately up to the Divine.

I respect the obvious bredth of your understanding, thanks for the comments.

122

Judas and Unforgivable Sin

by corpusdei in

i'll be the first to admit that i haven't done the research on this one, and i can't remember the answer from my jw days - but there's something bothering me about the scenario of judas and his betrayal of jesus.. considering that the betrayal of jesus by judas was foretold in prophecy, it was essentially set in stone.

it was going to happen, it was an absolute because divine prophecy is correct.

judas had to betray jesus in order to fulfil prophecy.. now, i've always personally believed that a person does not sin by an act that they cannot avoid, but this seems like kind of the motherload of standing on the traintracks.

corpusdei

I'll be the first to admit that I haven't done the research on this one, and I can't remember the answer from my JW days - but there's something bothering me about the scenario of Judas and his betrayal of Jesus.

Considering that the betrayal of Jesus by Judas was foretold in prophecy, it was essentially set in stone. It was going to happen, it was an absolute because Divine prophecy is correct. Judas had to betray Jesus in order to fulfil prophecy.

Now, I've always personally believed that a person does not sin by an act that they cannot avoid, but this seems like kind of the motherload of standing on the traintracks. If Judas doesn't betray Jesus, he invalidates Gods prophecy - if he does, he commits one of the most unforgivable sins in history.

Looking back on the account, a) In that moment, if Judas, through an excercise of free will, had chosen not to betray Jesus, would it have been necessary for Jehovah to have caused another close associate to commit the betrayal? Did free will come into play in that decision at all? and b) if the betrayal of Judas was prophesied, foretold, pre-decided, did he commit an unforgivable sin by being the instrument of that prophetic fulfilment?