Posts by jws

20

I'm being DA by my family

by reagan_oconnor in

wow... it's been awhile since i've posted, there are a lot of new names here.

i just had to post on this.... i received a letter from my mother friday telling me that she and my father no longer wish to associate with my husband or me.

they will contact me in case of emergency but thats it.

I'm a little unsure of your "official" status to the JWs. It says you were DF'ed, but then re-instated, then walked away, divorcing your ex. Knowing JW policy, I would assume you were DFed once more, due to leaving your husband.

I'm a little unclear as to whether that August KM article was "new light" or just a reinforcement of existing policies. DFed people, as far as I know, even family, have always been off-limits, except for "necessary" contact. And disassociated people have always been the same.

If you are not DF'ed or DA'ed, it would seem you've fallen through the cracks and should not technically be shunned. This is my situation. Though if they know how you view the JWs, they may have made the decision on their own.

It's sad and unfortunate and I continually worry that my family will do the same. To their warped way of thinking, it is our fault. They want us to come back and are witholding their friendship based on whether or not we do. We chose not to be JWs, so that is our choice. Call it our fault if you wish. Maybe it is our "fault". We knew the relationship risks when we chose to free ourselves from JW bondage and we knew the consequences it may have. And it is our actions that cause them to take theirs.

Is it right? Not if you've got an attitude that everyone has the right to do as they believe.

Right now, I'm a pacifist ex-JW when it comes to my family. I don't get into religious arguments with them. I don't try to pry them from their faith. And for the most part, I enjoy their company. To an extent, though I don't like it, I respect their right to believe as they wish. But I always figured that if they were to decide to shun me, I would have to take the offensive and wrest them from their faith.

Maybe, if indeed you did "just leave" (and not DF/DA), you can show them the info on the WT's official media site saying they don't shun people who simply walk away. Maybe this will cause enough confusion among them, especially being from an official JW website, that they may decide to keep your company after all.

-j.w.s.

16

Strange Ways

by link in

there have been numerous recent threads about the level of psychiatric illness amongst the jw fraternity.

does anyone have any stories about the way in which this manifested itself with people in their congregations?.

i remember the brother who was found by the police in the early hours of the morning wandering about in the local park.

jws

I do remember encountering a guy once out in field service who was what they would call me today: an apostate. Or, maybe he wasn't ex-JW, but knew a lot about them.

Though unverifiable, he maintained that there were more JWs as a percentage in mental institutions than any other religion. That threw me. To my trained JW mind, I hypothesised that it might be because we preach to them and convert them. Anyone else heard of this phenomenon?

Though thinking about it later, there were many people I knew in the Kingdom Hall who were not exactly "all there". When you think about it, there are a lot of imbalanced people out there who probably don't get attention and have few friends. Maybe they're depressed or lonely. When this group comes knocking on your door, offering to have you come join these friendly people, it's attractive.

My father once had a bible study with a guy who was nice enough, but a bit strange. Never really progressed too far. My dad didn't seem to care. He had his study he could count on his time sheet and was proud of that and kept the study going. This guy, however, probably appreciated the company more than anything. He was a wierd, dorky guy, probably in his late 40's who lived at home with his mother before she died. He probably had very few friends and welcomed the company.

I don't know that the organization necessarily causes all of the mental illness, though I'm certain there are enough factors to cause enough breakdowns (strictness, mind having to continually accept new light, etc.). I do think, however, that the organization, by it's active recruitment, becomes a magnet to people who are already mentally ill and perhaps haven't got the prescense of mind to see what they're getting themselves into.

-j.w.s.

22

Who were the apostates I once saw?

by ballistic in

jw
friends

there was talk the other day of "modern day apostates" which made me think back to the pre-internet days at conventions where we used to get leaflets sprung on us by what i then presumed to be apostates.

who are the apostates of the 80s and 90s who used to spring leaflets on us?

are they now on the net with us modern day apostates?

jws

I remember being, oh, maybe 10 and seeing that somebody had put magazines on the windsheilds of quite a few cars at a district convention. I think in Green Bay. They were made up to look like Watchtowers. Being only about 10 or so and loving parodies (like Mad magazine did), I wanted a copy, but our car didn't get one. I wanted to try to get one, but my parents told me they were apostates and wouldn't let me. Even so, I tried, but people were collecting them to throw away.

At the time, I didn't know what an apostate was. They told me that they were people saying bad things about the Witnesses and trying to argue against our beliefs. This actually made me want to see one of these things even more. Being raised JW and believing we had the "truth", I didn't think there was anything they could say against us and wanted desperately to see what it was. The fact that they didn't confront them like we did door-to-door and expose their lies actually gave them some credibility.

At each assembly afterwards, I would look for those magazines so that I could snag one and hide it before anybody took it away, but I never saw them again.

I think I remember seeing people with bullhorns and signs once. I think that was when I was about 15. I think that was in Green Bay too, but having a hard time remembering the building - don't think it was the packer hall-of-fame. The way they played it up, you'd think this was a sign of the end. I was worried about being physically attacked by protestors.

I'd have to say the protestors and people with the magazines did some good. They sort of woke me up from that "we know everything" mentality. That we shrank away from their material made it seem they had something to say that we couldn't defend against. It made it all the more curious to me. But, being a kid and not having good access to books or info I could never obtain that information. And this was way before www and amazon.com.

By chance, somebody had me watch a TV show on a Christian station about JWs when I was in my early 20's. The guy interviewed had his own ministry and sold some books about JWs, including Ray Franz's book. I ordered IMMEDIATELY.

Still wonder at times about that parody Watchtower. Never did find out what it said... Anybody out there know of this and have one? Would have been from an assembly in Wisconsin or possibly Illinois, maybe '75 to, say '83.

-j.w.s.

13

EXPLANATION ABOUT "FIXED PRICE" ON TH...

by enricofrassinetti in

jw
friends

dear all .. from others days, i am writing about the explanations on the barcode and his to signify.. evidently not is been understood what i want say, probably for my incapacity of speak well english.

about this, i will very happy if some brother or sister help me in this.. all systems applicated, on the system of buy and sell of the beast, and his worl trade organization, utilize the barcode for insert a "fixed price" to the supermarkets, when the private go to acquire whatever product.

(can you discuss the prices when go to pay to the cash box?).

jws

Maybe I don't understand this, but what do barcodes have to do with fixed prices? Barcodes only identify a product, not it's price. That's still up to each retailer to set prices. Granted, if prices DO change, all the retailer has to do is plug the new price into the the computer and when the item is scanned, the new price pops up. And it that sense, they are "fixed". Each item will cost the same when it's scanned. You don't get off cheaper because you found the can of peas at the back of the shelf that somebody forgot to put a new price sticker on like you could in the old days.

Granted, some barcode symbologies do encode a price (like when the meat department weighs the meat and slaps a barcode on).

But how is any of this different from price tags? It's not like G8 can now say bread costs $10 because of barcodes. And if they could set prices like that, it wouldn't matter whether or not barcodes are involved.

It's not good to go off joining some cause when your premises are faulty (like 1914 for instance). Relax. Take time to do more research and don't assume the premises are true. Question them.

-j.w.s.

15

Going to Burning Man?

by ThiChi in

jw
friends

any list members going to burning man (burningman.com) the week of august 26th?

i will be camping at the vw bus camp, which this year is real close to center camp!.

next year, we should apply for our own apostate camp and offer cult de-programming!.

jws

No burning man yet. Too far and too expensive. Been to Burning Flipside the last 3 years (www.burnaustin.org). It's a nice local burn of about 700 people Memorial Day weekend.

Love the community.

Wonder if any ex-JWs are there besides me.

-j.w.s.

23

Huge Catalogue of Field Service Supplies!

by expatbrit in

jw
friends

roll up and get everything from service bags to dog dazers!

http://www.stoopsmfg.com/catalog/jpg/page1.html

expatbrit

jws

The name Madzay Printing sounds familiar. All I remember is at the time thinking some people had some fancy stuff and wondering where they got it from. But apparently, due to the nature, if you didn't place a group order, you couldn't get the stuff. Nobody ever approached me when it was time to order so I never wound up ordering. Glad I didn't waste the money now.

You know, it sort of seemed to me like an elitist thing too. Only certain people had the leather bound bibles, or the fancy little laminated bookstudy schedules, etc.

Found it interesting that this Stoops place sells Strongs, Vines, and comparison Bibles. Wonder if a lot of JWs order them. That would lead to independent Bible research and the only research you *should* be doing is out of WTBS books.

-j.w.s.

15

If the Borg should fall....

by home_and_dry in

jw
friends

what would actually happen to the x-million jws out there?

(this is a rather far fetched scenario, but bear with me!

imagine if one day the borg were to release a letter to each cong in the world to be read simultaneously.

jws

I'm not going to comment on that scenario because I don't feel it could possibly happen. But I've often wondered about when or if they will ever disband.

As long as they have followers, they will not disband. But, as time marches on, those followers could disappear. How do all of you see that happening? Any time soon?

Or will the GB change doctrine enough to keep people strung along?

In my mind, I liked to play out how it would all fall apart. That say, by 2014, 100 years after 1914, that maybe people would start to think, hey, nothing's happened yet. If Christ is supposed to be invisibly present, when's he going to do something? And people would start leaving. If people start to leave in droves, it will upset the balance and could cause the rest to rethink. Eventually, it becomes unfeasible to belong. All of the aspects that serve to hold a cult together fall apart. When you no longer have enough people to support a hall, no more Kindom Halls! And those are so important to reinforcing their beliefs. When you don't have enough people to cover territory, no new converts! District conventions in a hotel suite instead of an arena! Maybe eventually only 2 or 3 people left (probably at HQ in New York) who just decide to call it quits.

However, the JWs seem to be craftier than that and they could change to meet the future. The original GB will all be dead in a few years. With each change in regime, they have reinvented themselves to some degree. For instance, they could slowly phase out 1914 and do away with teachings based on that. Focus more on preaching a future paradise and drop the date setting. It seems there might be evidence of leading towards this. They've already reinvented the 1914 generation thing back in 1994. One poster said he noticed that 1914 was getting used less and less when he did a search on their literature. Could this mean it's getting prepped to be phased-out? Past history shows when they are going to make a change, they stop using that teaching way before it happens. Also a recent change in the Awake admitted that earthquakes are no more prevalent than they were before 1914. And sort of leaned towards Jesus saying this and that would happen, not saying these things would be more drastic. So they could end up revising all that "things have been different since 1914" nonsense.

Although there is a lot to change and could cause a lot of confusion and wake up a lot of people. But, more might be sucked in by the new teachings and never know of past problems (like today).

A friend of mine was part of the Way Ministries going back to the late 80's. From what I understand, after the founder died, a new guy came in who made a lot of changes. Since he was having some sort of affair outside marriage, he tried to change teachings to exonerate himself. He tried to organize into more of a traditional church too rather than a loosely based network of home groups. It drove thousands of people away to where total "membership" (even though that probably isn't the best word since it was looser than that) dropped to a fraction of what it was. Though so many people left, there are still those that hang on.

I suspect no matter what the JWs do, there will ALWAYS be people who will hang-on and keep following. Look at the Bible Students who still follow Russells teachings. Even JWs have dropped most of those.

I just keep hoping it will fall apart while my father is still alive, because I think that's the only way he can escape.

-j.w.s.

11

Even a broken clock is right twice a day!

by kenpodragon in

jw
friends

a few days back i was talking to the one friend i have that is still a jehovah's witnesses.

actually, i think he is in denial that he left, since he has not been regular to meetings for four years.

well we got in this discussion about prophesy.

jws

Even if the JWs are not right about prophecy, the Bible still has prophecies. Assuming you still believe in the Bible after your JW experiences. I still do.

When I was a JW, I remember every time something happened in the Middle East, people were trying to find a way to fit it into some prophecy or another. Always looking for that cry of "peace and security".

I don't think you're speaking of an entirely JW phenomenon, but a religious one in general. The Bible speaks in symbolisms of many things that are to occur and many Christian groups have some sort of a concept of what these symbolisms might represent (who is the king of the north, who is the serpent, who is the beast, etc.). One popular (though fictionalized) view of this is the Left Behind book series.

If the Bible fortells things, wouldn't it be for the purpose of us understanding those things before or when they are fulfilled? Either that or as a way for us to look back after these things have happened and say, "look, the Bible fortold this", it must be right. In my opinion, other than proving divine inspiration, it does not do much practical good to know a prophecy was fulfilled after the fact. It's usually to let people know what's coming beforehand.

All I'm going to say is *maybe* things are being fulfilled that were spoken of years ago. Particularly when things start happening in the Middle East. Ancient Babylon is in what is now Iraq, which the US seems on the verge of war with. Suicide bombings in Israel, etc., etc. *Maybe* this is all leading up to something. Or, like past events, it will come and go.

I don't buy that a little hard-times here in the US means anything in particular. The JWs are sort of USA-centric. What about financial problems in Japan a few years ago. Why would "people throwing money into the streets" apply only to the USA? Why wasn't it a fulfillment when Japan had financial woes? Or Russia?

All I'm saying is maybe things in the Bible are being fulfilled. I wouldn't discount it altogether. But to get scared and run back to a false religion like the JWs seems idiotic. If some final judgement was at hand wouldn't you want to be closer to God, not serve him via proxy through some man-made organization?

-j.w.s.

33

Lawrence Hughes Class Action Website

by Simon in

jw
friends

http://www.watchtower-victims.org/.

pretty simple for the time being but no doubt it will change and develop over time.. i will do a banner ad to link to it and would encourage anyone who can publicise it to do so.

feel free to copy the banner when it is posted on here.

jws

Very thoughtful comments. However, when the Jws go "Door to Door" and publicly express their rightness before all, should that not allow a public rebuttal?

I don't know that a court is the place to determine a religion's "rightness". Just because their door-to-door work is public, it shouldn't, in my opinion, make them any more or less of a target to lawsuits than any other religion. There are those that broadcast on TV, those that put up billboards, those (other than JWs) that hand out leaflets, and others that hold up signs outside events. These are all public methods of prostelyzing that reach outside the walls of the church.

Anybody who answers the door to them has the opportunity to debate them. Or at the very least, ignore them and close the door on them.

Public websites such as this one and many, many others address their claims and debunk their claims to rightness quite well. At least in the religious theory category. These sites are a public rebuttal.

As for the child molestation issue, that's where I say go ahead, go after them. Crimes should be reported. I draw the line at, "I suffered because I was disfellowshipped, pay me money". Or, "I was a drug addicted loser so I got DFed and my JW friends stopped talking to me. Sure, I lost most of my other friends due to my addiction and behavior, but the JWs should pay me for DFing me. It's not MY fault". Boo-hoo. (BTW, not my personal experience, only a hypothetical one)

Also, how can the "wrongs be righted" when the Jws do not even acknowledge a problem? Legal recourse seems reasonable...

You have a good point. But go after them for the true wrongs that endanger lives or safety, not just differences in religious beliefs. Give them some room to practice religion as they see it should be praticed.

At this point though, I can't see how they can ignore their wrongs, lawsuit or not. They may not publicly acknowledge a problem, but internally, they know it exists and must acknowledge it.

What happens if they address it in their own way to prevent future events? Like, say, encouraging anyone molested to go to the authorities? Or encouraging elders to encourage children to go to the authorities? This is a step in the right direction. But is it all the class action suit seeks? Will that satisfy? A suit seeks to dictate one solution to the problem, whereas others may exist and be preferable to the defending party.

I'm not saying lawsuits in the areas of endangering lives and safety is a bad thing. And maybe even some monetary punishment might be in order. But this suit is a lot broader than just these issues. Issues that, to me, border on telling a religion how it should believe.

-j.w.s.

13

Seeing "Demons" as a JW ....?

by curiouschristy in

jw
friends

i know this seems like a touchy subject, but i have to post this!!.

when i was younger, only 11, i and also my mother and two sisters, whom my .

mother and one sister is still in the or., anyway, we all saw on several occasions.

jws

Interesting how a lot of people report that these experiences end when they are no longer a JW. If you believe what is probably the JW party line, then this is proof that they are the true religion. That these sightings are demons trying to scare "true Christians". And that after you leave JWs, there is no reason for them to make you a target.

OR, the great emotional stress of being a JW (fear of armageddon, fear of not living through it, fear of being disfellowshipped, fear of demons, being told Satan is out prowling for you, fear of worldly influences, etc.) spurs some sort of openess to suggestion. I don't know you and don't know what emotional state you were in. And I'm not saying you didn't see what you saw. But I do believe this is the case for many JWs. They interpret things according to their fears. That noisy mouse in the attic is a demon. That board that fell over because of a change in air pressure when you opened the front door was really a demon, etc.

I myself wrote about my demon posessed PC a few weeks ago. I'm no longer a JW, but I can't say that thought didn't cross my mind when my PC kept mysteriously turning itself on. I later discovered that when the phone was ringing, my external modem sent a signal to the PC that caused it to "wake up" and turn itself on.

One wonders though, why? We all know the JWs are not the true religion. Why would demons attack them more than others? And why with what they do? What? Rattling boxes, lifting up beds, etc? I can see the "ghost" thing. That would sort of challenge their believe that there is no soul to live-on after death. But scare tactics? Wouldn't that drive you deeper into the religion to seek safety, when presumably a demon's goal would be to drive you out of it?

Although I have met others who claim to have had supernatural experiences other than JWs. They tend to be people on the fringes of society, maybe with shall we say? questionable mental capabilities. Whether this is caused from their encounters or the cause of their encounters, I don't know.

-j.w.s.