Posts by jws

16

Does Shunning Work?

by JH in

jw
friends

does shunning a person who quit going to the meetings make him want to go back?

well that's the reason why they shun people.

they think you'll go back if you're shunned.

jws

The stated purpose of shunning and snubbing is to create pain and induce the victim to return to the control of the Book Publishing Corporation in order to end the pain. The real reason is to protect the members from information and facts known by the outcasts, i.e. information control.

I'd have to disagree. Shunning was around long before we had such easy access to information. 30 years ago, if somebody got DFed, it wasn't like they could start poking around and find anti-JW info and a support group of ex-JWs. Before the internet, finding this stuff wasn't easy. Bookstores didn't often carry books about it. Even now, I never see books like COC at Barnes and Noble. Back then, you were on your own. I'd have to agree that nowdays, it also helps to serve that purpose. But I don't think that's what it was dreamt up to do.

Is shunning biblical? I'm not saying the JW version is, but the concept does seem to appear in the Bible. It seems to be saying stay away from bad people who have no will to change. Not the JW version where you can be DFed for things like smoking. But it does seem like a good general rule. Stay away from people who are hurtful or have no concern for others. Seemed like it was more of a warning to believers about others rather than a way to punish believers who make mistakes now and then.

As for whether the JW version works? I always saw it as cruel. I knew two people, one a close friend, John, the other more of an aquaintance, Mike. Both were DFed at different times for unrelated things. Both put up an effort to get reinstated, but were never cut a break. Mike's car broke down in the middle of winter and he walked the rest of the way to the hall, but was rebuked for being late and it was counted against him. John was rejected by his sister and was deeply hurt by the loss of friends and the coldness of the elders. During this time, they kept in contact with each other and I kept in contact with John. So, they weren't completely cut off. I'd see Mike every now and then and at least give him a nod or smile and say hi. Talking to him was risky for me. At one point, he took a cleaning job at the company I worked for, so in privacy, we got to talk more. He really appreciated the fact that my brother and I cared enough to acknowledge him and it meant more to him than the coldness of the congregation - especially since we weren't really friends.

By making it so hard to return, both of them gave up, each for their own reasons. So in these cases, the shunning actually drove them away. If the elders were a little more leniant and gave them some more slack and reinstated them sooner, they may have returned and may be good JWs to this day. In this cong, people often had to pay their dues for a year or two. In other states, I heard of reinstatements in as little as 6 weeks to 2 months.

To add insult to injury, at some point, the WBTS determined that people who were never baptised could not be DFed. John, growing up "in the truth", but never getting baptised fit into this category. Suddenly his sister welcomed him and reestablished contact. The only thing that changed about John was how an organization categorized him. One day he's off limits, the next he's OK. So, basically, he was wrongly shunned by so-called "God's Organization". According to the JW view, apparently God saw fit to mess up John's life and deeply hurt him because he wasn't ready to reveal this technicality about non-baptised ones to his people yet.

24

Saddam the Comedian

by TR in

jw
friends

in the latest news article, saddam said: .

http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/world/dailynews/iraq030117.html.

he said the bush administration has been "pushed by zionists and interest-seekers to play a role of wild and destructive instincts instead of the civilized behavior that is expected in this age.".

jws

Anybody see a documentary on Cinemax called "Uncle Saddam". From the info on it, a documentary film maker came to make a documentary about the effects of the embargo on the people of Iraq. This apparently got him access to Saddam and others. The result of the footage ended up being a documentary about Saddam instead. The mafiaso reference seems well deserved.

At one point, bragging about all the great things they have built, apparently somebody brings up the question of food for the masses and his answer is something to the effect of, 'we do things so well. If we put our efforts into providing food, we will do it so well, we will have too much food' - or something like that.

But, the people seem to love him. Much in the way that many in Cuba love Castro in spite of his record.

In spite of his strong-handed techniques, nepotism, and overall poor running of his country, why should we care? Why now? When he was killing his people way back before Gulf War I, we knew and didn't care enough to step in. So it seems to me that claiming our concern for Iraqi citizens has nothing to do with anything. Do we care that he's a dictator? Is that why he must be deposed? So what? It's his country. Why don't we depose other dictators like Castro? Because he has WOMD? Does that make him dangerous? Sure. But we have them too, meaning we're dangerous to other lands and cultures. Should they depose our leaders? Should we be forced to disarm?

Things strike me as terribly wrong about war with Iraq. It seems to be a foregone conclusion whether the weapons inspectors find evidence of current WOMD programs or not. So it seems to me like the WOMD thing is a smoke screen. We decided long ago that we were going to go to war against Iraq. Sure, Saddam is a bad guy. But since when did we go around starting wars with every bad-guy ruler in the world? Especially when they have not struck first?

9

Meetings in hiding places

by JH in

jw
friends

if one day the government would put an end to jw meetings, how do you think the watchtower would get organized to keep meetings going?

they told us that meetings would be held in houses or in secret places.

i dont know of any house big enough to accommodate 80+ people.

jws

My dad used to say that there would likely be very small, less than ten, in a gathering and that they would either not bring any literature or would hide it. I've heard about them maybe bringing their literature in a gift wrapped package making it appear to be a wedding party, etc.

JWs without their literature??? If they could find a Bible, they might have to read straight from that. Eeek! Or without any literature, they might have to think of and discuss subjects of their own, which leads to the dreaded "independent thinking".

I wonder if they'd schedule less meetings? Or would those that played it cautious be looked down on?

Pretending to be a wedding party??? So someone's getting married every Sunday, Tuesday, and Thursday of every week? Sounds like a lame ruse.

I guess all they'd have to smuggle now would be a CD and they can all huddle around a PC to read old literature on CD. Maybe then the WBTS would start using electronic distribution of WT and Awakes that could be concealed on something as small as a memory card for a camera.

4

Let the Rumors Fly!

by NaruNaruChan in

jw
friends

so, i was talking to my best non-jw guy friend about random stuff when he said "what's apostate literature?

why do you know that word?

" and he said " well, ron (ron being one of my old jw friends) asked if i'd gotten any from you.

jws

Funny that they think that everybody has to hand out literature. Either you're a JW handing out Watchtowers and Awakes or your an ex-JW handing out apostate literature.

And how many, if they weren't once a JW would even care about anti-JW literature?

When my dad was announcing with glee the trouble the Catholic church was in over the molestation scandals (and this was still a few months before Bill Bowen and the Dateline story broke), I took the air out of his sails a bit by asking if he had heard about all of the JW molestation scandals. And, after getting very uncomfortable (as he always does with any anti-JW subjects), he told me that he heard there were a lot of apostates in my state and asked whether I was mixed up with them.

How he forgets. He knows I've told him 1914 is bogus. We've discussed the double standards within the org, how manmade they are, how falliable, how we shouldn't follow them, how we don't need them to worship God. That's all pretty apostate by itself, and that's from a dozen years ago, even before I moved to this supposedly "apostate" infested state.

In truth, I've never been to an apostafest and so far only know apostates on-line. And I see there's a few in the area, but so many from farther places like the UK, Australia and California.

Dad is so worried about the "apostates". Can't he see I'm already one?

23

Latest Blood Documents from Jan. 2003 TMS

by Jourles in

go here to view scans of the latest blood documents that were released this week at the service meeting: .

http://12.210.76.249/blood_docs/ (the scans are big!

but the size averages around 70-80k per file) .

jws

Some of the same garbage that ticked me off. Could have lost my father because of this crap.

He was in the hospital for bypass surgery and before the surgery, I looked over his form and I'm glad I did. In his case, I think he was confused and merely asked somebody else which choices he was supposed to check - or maybe the congregation filled them out together and told them, check A, B, and C, but not D. Problem being, at the time in 97, they had just released a new form. Me being an ex-JW and knowing which medical procedures would be more and less objectionable, looked at his form and it looks like he had them switched around. He had all the most questionable (to a JW) procedures OKed but all the least objectionable ones checked as NO. For instance, having blood go out of the body and right back in through a continuous tube was checked no, but storing his own blood and reintroducing it later was OKed. It didn't make sense. While respecting his right to make is own medical choices, it was really questionable as to why he OKed what he did and said no to the others.

When I tried to question why he answered the way he did, his wife (not my mother) is like a mother bird protecting a nest. She gets real defensive and starts treating me as an enemy, as if I'm trying to trick my dad. She's defensive and panicky in the first place and the whole life-or-death gravity of the situation made it worse. After my sister (also a JW) looked it over a little closer, she felt the same way I did. Finally his wife is willing to listen, but not make changes without calling in elders to consult with.

Some elder comes by and tries to explain the JW blood policy. No S--T sherlock, as if I don't know their stance. Tell me the differences between these two procedures and why one is OK and the other isn't. He couldn't. He didn't understand the procedures. So I get transferred to the JW medical liason, who is only slightly less ignorant. We discover a change in forms. The best I can figure is he was told to OK A, B, and C, but not D. Only on the old form, the order was reversed. Mr. lazy liason was reluctant to drive the 40 miles or so to the hospital on a Sunday night, but dad's surgery was first thing the next morning. After a some raised voices and threats of legal action, his sorry ass showed up and new forms were filled out and signed.

Good thing too. My dad was out of it for about the next 4 weeks. Didn't know what was going on. During the early part of his recovery, his kidneys were close to failure and it may have resulted in dialysis - something his first medical form prohibited. The new form OKed it.

It's a shame that such idiots who don't even know this stuff are in charge of forcing it on other people. And then, when they don't even take the care to make sure people understand what they are filling out. These guys just piss me off. And then there's all the JWs who don't even know what they're filling out or understand the procedures, merely checking yes or no based on what somebody else "suggests".

On the plus side, it was the first time I was able to argue with an elder and not feel concern over it, and to tell them they had no idea what they were talking about. And I actually raised my voice to one and threatened him with legal action. That felt so good!

10

online WT & Awake?

by Tyler_Durden in

jw
friends

hey guys.

anyone know of a website that has transcripts of the latest wt & awake?.

i've searched relevant sites and found nothing .

jws

www.watchtower.org, their official site has some articles, but I think that's mostly the fluff pieces, it's by no means the entire magazines. And I don't think they post the study articles, just the ones you might find at the front of the magazine. The old, look at this problem, Jehovah's Kingdom is the solution articles.

Like I've said before, it does seem odd that so much volunteer effort goes towards getting these magazines into the hands of people, yet they don't do things to make that more convenient and where they can potentially reach more people.

I might read online religious literature from various religious groups just out of curiosity to see what they believe, whereas I'd never accept literature from thos people because I don't want them pestering me. I like checking it out for myself in the privacy of my home, with no committments. You'd think if they had things online, curious people afraid of JWs might read it and get interested. I guess they have that at watchtower.org. It's just that we know it's not the whole story.

Not sure the exact problem. Some have suggested outright greed. That free online copies don't bring in money.

Maybe they're afraid somebody will alter it and reprint it to mislead. They always have been a paranoid bunch.

If they really believe it to be the truth, then why restrict it? Shouldn't ALL of the information be available as far and wide as possible?

15

Special Needs Talks - Did You Ever Confront?

by Stephanus in

jw
friends

.

has anyone here ever had the balls to confront someone over a special needs talk that was obviously aimed at you?

jws

Catch 22. You feel you've been betrayed, yet can't discuss it without actually admitting to it.

Not sure what the "crime" was in our case, but in our case, things like working out??? C'mon. Don't tell me the only acceptable form of excercise for a JW is walking from door-to-door. We felt they were wrong and needed adjustment and wrote them off as foolish. In fact, felt most of these things were a matter of personal choice and tastes and for the most part, we were still playing by the JW rules.

But what if it's something more serious? Could have tried the ignorance approach if they didn't know for a fact you were guilty. Approach the speaker and tell him that some people think he was talking about you. Ask whether there is anything he can do to let the congregation know it wasn't you?

Now if they know you're guilty... Well, those sort of things go with the JW territory. If you got reproved or DFed, they're usually going to give a special needs talk about it. Supposedly under the guise that if one person is doing it, others are at risk, so they need to address it. Meanwhile, you may have been the only one who knew and you've already been dealt with. When I was a JW, it was usually a good way to find out why somebody got DFed. Wait for the next special needs talk. To me, it's all just a part of the unjustice that's part of their punishment process. Just as DFing is cruel, so are these types of talks as they only serve to publicly embarrass you.

It probably wasn't personal against you. It happens all the time when people are reproved/DFed.

22

Were You Ever a Member of the Secret Police?

by Swan in

jw
friends

a lot of experiences have been written about elders spying on people, tailing them in cars, etc.

i think this may have once happened to me, but am not sure if my intuition was correct or if my mind was just playing tricks.

i sometimes have some paranoia as a result of the trauma of being in the jws, so i am not sure what to believe.

jws

I have no doubt that informants are used, much like the FBI's proposed informant program. And I remember people who would be tattle-tales, even going out of their way to find out stuff to tell.

But I've gotta be a little skeptical that it was too organized. I've heard tales of stakeouts on radio programs. I even participated in one with a roomate on a girl who called him, claimed to be the mother of his child, yet kept dodging attempts to meet. Fact is, it requires a lot of time to commit to something like that and/or good organization. I don't think most JWs have the time or organization for either.

Most elders are family men (isn't being married a requirement). I'm sure cases do vary, but how many family men have time to go stakeout a house, especially when they are JWs and have to attend 3 meetings a week and prepare and give countless talks. Oh, and earn a living. There just aren't enough hours in the day for the time required to do a good job at a stakeout.

If cars are staking out your house, I'd look for somebody driven by a strong motivation to get the goods on you. Be it an ex-lover trying to get you in trouble over your new one. Maybe an uptight person who feels you're getting away with too much, hates you, and wants to cause trouble. Elders can and do fall into that sort of profile. But again, time. Somebody without elder duties is more likely to be a spy.

13

Meetings

by JH in

jw
friends

hebrews 10:25

let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another-- and all the more as you see the day approaching.

the dubs teached this as an obligation to go to the meetings.

jws

Looking at this verse without Watchtower blinders, to me it says meeting together with other people to encourage and be encouraged.

Going to a church service is not necessarily what it means. Meeting with one or more fellow Christians, in my opinion, would be what this verse is asking for. That may mean going out to eat, going to the zoo, whatever. It doesn't have to mean a service.

If you ask me, JW meeting attendance was quite different from the way I now see this verse. If you got there early, there might be some visiting with others. Then the meeting started and you listened. The only interaction between people was in a very defined question and answer format with strict rules for who could talk and what they could talk about. Then, after the meeting, many had to leave so you couldn't always visit with them afterwards either.

And for the most part, the same is true of most churches I have visited. You're meant to come, sit, and listen. Although many other churches have a more lively, upbuilding message to listen to that preaches joy, not oppression.

When the JWs did have get-togethers, this was, to me, more upbuilding than meeting attendance. It would have also been nice to sometimes learn about the Bible informally in talking to others. But since that was frowned upon (you can only learn from WBTS publications), this didn't happen. There didn't seem to be too much religious talk unless it was about JW rules or assemblies, etc. Never the Bible.

13

How hard are the elders going to try?

by freedom96 in

jw
friends

as we have all seen, the elders seem to be finding all the inactive, and trying to make us make a choice.

we are either for or against the wts, and they want us to tell them so they know what to do with us.. the question i have is, how hard are they trying to find us?

will it be a simple phone call on the card that was in file?

jws

Well, you never know how each elder will take the direction. Some may feel it a burden. Some JWs feel the WBTS has special insight and that if they are calling for this to happen, then it is brilliant and they Society may even have some special knowledge that this will pay off in people returning, so they are excited to get started. Some may enjoy the break from routine matters and relish the chance to play detective in the tracking people down part.

Based on posts here, I knew this was coming several months ago and like clockwork, it starts as the new year starts. How ridiculous. Nobody even jumping the gun, saying, hey that's a good idea that we visit the lost sheep. Why wait until January?

Anyway, knowing it was coming I asked my dad to let me know if anybody started asking for my whereabouts. I'll let you know if I hear anything. I live 1000+ miles from my last congregation and it's been almost 14 years. If they track me down, then I can assure you they are determined.

But then again, I might be a good target. First off, I do have a penis. My father joined nearly 50 years ago and at various times was City Overseer, I believe Presiding Overseer, Elder, and Ministerial Servant (still is today). He has pioneered in the past few years. He is very well known and used to give talks and make friends all over the place. He also used to travel to a lot of hall buildings and make friends and work on halls. Our home used to host the bookstudy. Both my sisters are in as well. I'm assuming that these things sort of elevate my profile. Based on conversations with my dad, people still remember me and ask about me. A lot more so than somebody who starts attending for a while, doesn't know anybody, doesn't bond, then dissappears.

Also, a letter that was posted about the whole visiting people process said something about transferrring publisher records. I wonder if a local congregation now has my records. I wonder if somebody heard about my move 9 years ago and inquired about my change of address way back then. And, since that was only a temporary apartment and I moved across town 6 months afterwards, my records could still be stuck at some congregation. A congregation who never saw me and didn't get around to contacting me in time before I moved again. Now they're sitting on records, not knowing what to do with them. Could I have gotten lost in the system?