Posts by ABibleStudent

8

How does the WTBTS Deceive.

by ABibleStudent in

john 8:42-47 (niv 2008).

42 jesus said to them, "if god were your father, you would love me, for i came from god and now am here.

43 why is my language not clear to you?

ABibleStudent

Hi Larsinger58, sabastious, yknot, itsacult2, darth frosty, and DesirousOfChange, thank you for reading this thread and writing your comments to it.

sabastious, although you can see and understand the tactics that the WTBTS uses now, most people, who have not been exposed to WTBTS tactics and have not read the Bible very much, I believe, are very trusting and therefore very susceptible to the WTBTS tactics. I started this thread to hopefully raise people’s awareness of WTBTS’ tactics so that individuals can more effectively counter such tactics.

Yknot, thank you for a history lesson about how the WTBTS has changed since 1983, and counsel to not to assume that all JWs behave and think the same. You are right that I do not have as much experience as you do about interacting with JWs. I am also not afraid to express my opinion as an individual to stimulate people to think and to ask for help to improve my understanding from more knowledgeable people. Like I wrote in the thread (Belated) Hello , “ I am moving on in my life trying to balance my many interests with helping others.” Part of helping others is to write a thread such as this one to empower JWs, former JWs, and non-JWs to free the minds and the Holy Spirit inside of JWs (and other highly controlling religions). Thank you for your kind offer to contact my former friend. I always look forward to learning more from you. I am sure that other people on this forum who have spouses or BFs would appreciate learning how you would counter WTBTS tactics and free the minds of a JW when talking with my former friend.

Larsinger58, I am sure that many JWs stay in the “Truth” because of prestige (i.e., power), family, friends, social relationships, etc. I also believe that many R&F truly believe that they are serving Jehovah and it gives them a purpose for living. I would like to free the minds of JWs to see that they have power to change the WTBTS if they have the courage to stop donating time and money to the WTBTS, to write anonymous emails to other JWs to visit sites such as the JWN, jwfacts, watchtowerdocuments, silentlambs, etc., to read the Bible and pray more than to read the WTBTS literature, etc.

darth frosty, I agree that the WTBTS manipulates the scriptures for their own purposes. I have also discovered that by reading the whole paragraph or chapter of a Bible Book that contains a scripture quoted in the Watchtower/Awake!, that most people will become aware of how the WTBTS manipulates the scriptures for their purposes. My favorite example is how the WTBTS quotes Mt 24:45 to justify why to blindly follow the WTBTS and GB saying that it is a prophesy, instead of quoting the whole paragraph (Mt 24:45-51) showing that it may be more of a warning.

Mt 24:45-51 (NIV 2008)
45 “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47 I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48 But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ 49 and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

DesirousOfChange, I agree with you that the WTBTS’ leadership seems to be intentionally trying to deceive the R&F with the tactics that the Writing Department uses to feed the R&F. Maybe the GB and WTBTS’ leadership have crossed the line from spiritual enlightenment to maintaining a corporation’s existence with cash flow. It is also possible that Raymond Franz is correct. JWs should be free to decide for themselves, but they have many obstacles to overcome to free their minds and the Holy Spirit inside of them.

Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

ABibleStudent

23

dos it really matter if it was a cross or a stake???

by highdose in

jw
friends

what does it matter?

i belive its been found that the romans used both, so what does it matter?.

what does it matter that the roman word for cross sounds also like a word for another god?.

ABibleStudent

Hi Highdose, I agree with you that it is more important to remember that Jesus Christ was willing to be cruxified to show mankind how to live instead of whether he was cruxified on a stake or cross, but I was never a JW either. I do believe that the WTBTS has always tried to differentiate itself from other Christian religions because the WTBTS leadership wants to isolate JWs from society any way that they can. Forbidding celebrating birthdays & Holidays, abstaining from blood transfusions, not saluting the flag, etc. are just ways that the WTBTS leadership can isolate JWs from other members of society (just my opinion of coarse).

Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

ABibleStudent

5

Where can I see a list of district conventions for this year?

by Iamallcool in

jw
friends

ABibleStudent

Hi Iamallcool, Click on this link http://www.jw.org/index.html?option=FRNsPnPBrt. Good-luck finding a convention close to you.

Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

ABibleStudent

8

How does the WTBTS Deceive.

by ABibleStudent in

john 8:42-47 (niv 2008).

42 jesus said to them, "if god were your father, you would love me, for i came from god and now am here.

43 why is my language not clear to you?

ABibleStudent

John 8:42-47 (NIV 2008)

42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

A couple of days ago on the JWN I read ” Is the Governing Body Guilty or not guilty of 1975 speculations going too far?” by Terry. It is a very interesting thread about how the WTBTS (i.e., Fred Franz) used rhetorical questions to “spoon feed information without taking any active personal responsibility according to Terry. Although JWs do lie and may justify lying with “Theocratic Reasoning” or “Theocratic Strategy”, would Our Father and Jesus Christ agree with deceiving “Worldly” people? Terry’s thread started me thinking about how to defend against tactics that the WTBTS uses.

I like asking JWs (and people in general) questions as a less confrontation way of getting individuals to evaluate and think about their beliefs. Hopefully, I have not/will not ask rhetorical questions like the WTBTS does. My objective is always to get people to think and to respond authentically as an individual. The WTBTS’ objective is always to get JWs to blindly follow the WTBTS.

What is the difference between asking rhetorical questions and asking questions? Can questions (and the following self-answers) be worded to indoctrinate people? The following two examples hopefully will show the differences between rhetorical questions with answers, and asking questions to stimulate thinking:

Rhetorical question from WT

Are we to assume from this study that the battle of Armageddon will be all over by the autumn of 1975, and the long-looked-for thousand-year reign of Christ will begin by then? Possibly, but we wait to see how closely the seventh thousand-year period of man’s existence coincides with the sabbathlike thousand-year reign of Christ.

Question

Do you believe that the battle of Armageddon will be all over by the autumn of 1975?

I have noticed that JWs use the following strategies/tactics (in bold) to promote what they are saying, change subjects, or continue with their original line of reasoning. After each strategy/tactic, I have written a proposed defending/counter tactic. Most of the counter tactics use the well known strategy that children use on their parents: ask why.
o Completely ignoring what other people say/ask. Say have a nice day and walk away.
o That is an interesting thought. Ask them, "why is it interesting?"
o You are not ready to learn Bible Principles. Why do you feel specifically that I am not ready?
o JWs are not perfect and do not know everything. Ask them, "Why they feel JWs are not perfect and which JWs do they feel are not perfect?" Or, if JWs are not perfect, why do they feel that they are the only “True” Christians?
o The light keeps getting brighter and brighter. Ask them to explain, "Why the WTBTS has flipped flopped on specific doctrines?" Need to know at least a couple of doctrines and dates that the WTBTS has flipped flopped on.
o Lying A person would need to be very knowledgeable about the Bible and WTBTS literature to have a conversation with someone who lies. It is probably best to say have a nice day and walk away.
o Glazed over eyes while holding hands over ears and running away. Thank them for the exchange of ideas and tell them (shout, if they are far away) to have a nice day.

If you have participated in WTBTS strategy courses, does the WTBTS teach other tactics? Have you observed JWs using other tactics than the aforementioned tactics? How would you defend/counter tactics that JWs use?

Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,
ABibleStudent

34

What they DON'T tell you

by Black Man in

jw
friends

hey everybody, i'm in the middle of an ongoing debate w/some jws and they are asserting that everyone knows what they're getting into when they are studying and getting baptized and that nobody forces anyone to become a jw and that you can leave anytime you want.

ok, we know that's not true.

how would you counter that argument?

ABibleStudent

Hi Black Man, If you can get a JW to answer questions authentically without relying on WTBTS strategies/tactics/sayings/slogans, the JW might begin to doubt their beliefs. I would start by asking JWs the following questions:

· Will you continue to study the Bible with a convert, who says that he does not want to be baptized a JW? Why?

· Will you study the Bible with a convert, who does not want to study the WTBTS literature? Why?

· Do JWs follow the teachings of Jesus Christ or the WTBTS? Do JWs spend more time reading WTBTS literature, or the 4 Gospels? If JWs spend more time reading WTBTS literature, then why do they call themselves Christians? What do JWs think of 1Co 3 in its entirety without using WTBTS literature to interpret it for them?

· If you read the entire paragraph of Mt 24:45-51, is Mt 24:45 a prophesy or a warning? Why?

The following are examples (in bold) of stalling tactics/sayings/slogans that JWs will use to change subjects or continue with their original line of reasoning:

· That is an interesting thought. Ask them why is it interesting?

· You are not ready to learn Bible Principles. Why do you feel that I am not ready?

· JWs are not perfect and do not know everything. Ask them why they feel JWs are not perfect, and which JWs do they feel are are not perfect? Or, if JWs are not perfect, why do they feel that they are the only true Christians?

· The light keeps getting brighter and brighter. Ask them to explain why the WTBTS has flipped flopped on specific doctrines?

I hope that the comments from other posters and what I have written is helpful to you.

Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

ABibleStudent

4

Another JW chain e-mail...Damn these are annoying!

by fade_away in

jw
friends

i received a very interesting email a few minutes ago... you may have already seen it but i thought i'd forward it anyway.

it made me think of how blessed we are by jehovah to see with our own eyes the fulfillment of many prophesies which increase our faith in him and in our king christ.

on a personal note, it sent chills down my spine because it's not everyday i get impacted by something like this.... .

ABibleStudent

Hi fade_away, Does the email chain have all the email addresses of JWs? If it does, why not send an email of your own to all those email addresses from your own anonymous email address like what I wrote on 04/23/11 in http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/209213/1/How-to-email-JWs-at-the-Brooklyn-Bethel. If you don't want to email those JWs, PM me and I will be happy to send an anonymous email like the one below.

Have you checked out the following web sites? They have some unbelievable information about Jehovah's Organization.
1) www.jwstruggle.com
2) www.silentlambs.org
3) www.watchtowerdocuments.com
4) www.jwfacts.com
Don't you just love what Jehovah's organization is doing for us?

Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

ABibleStudent

18

Should the GB be charged with crimes against humanity?

by punkofnice in

i get really angry when i think of how the gb have callously allowed lives to be ruined.

protected child molesters.

caused deaths because of a weird blood doctrine.

ABibleStudent

Hi punkofnice, although I agree with you about all the things that the WTBTS has advocated to JWs that has adversely affect the lives of JWs, at the end of the day it is still the individual JWs decision that has adversely affected every JW. The WTBTS is very careful to use innuendo and saying "it is what Jehovah wants" instead of saying this is a WTBTS direct order. I doubt that any court would be able to convict the GB and the WTBTS about what is written in WTBTS literature. It would possibly be more effective to learn how to deprogram JWs, to email JW friends and family links to websites such as the JWN, and to suggest to JWs who have doubts about the WTBTS to stop donating to the WTBTS.

If you believe in Our Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, you can take solice in Mt 24:45-51. I pity a GB member or president of the WTBTS when he meets Jesus Christ.

Mathew 24:45-51 (NIV 2008) 45 “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47 I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48 But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ 49 and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

ABibleStudent

132

Hello

by Chariklo in

i am new to this site, just finding my way around.. i've been studying with jw's for about 15 months.

i'm an unbaptised publisher, and until recently never missed a meeting, have been out "on the service" quite a lot.

i've been having difficulties with one of the jw's studying with me and something happened which was just unacceptable.

ABibleStudent

Hi Chariklo, welcome and congratulations on seeing the red flags. Why not ask your Bible study conductor, if they will continue to study the Bible with you if you decide not to become baptized? Most likely they will say no or change the subject to avoid giving you a yes/no answer. A brother who was studying the Bible with me decided not to continue to associate with me after he determined that I disagreed with the WTBTS' doctrines of blood and blindly following the WTBTS.

Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

ABibleStudent

14

(Belated) Hello

by ABibleStudent in

jw
friends

(belated) hello everyone,.

i joined this forum and the jwsf in june/july10.

i have posted 46 times on the jwn before realizing that new members traditionally introduce themselves and i have not.

ABibleStudent

Hi St George of England, thanks for your very sound advice. Don't worry about me. I am moving on with my life. I just enjoy talking and seeing my former friend whenever she makes the effort to accidently bump into me on the trails.

BTW SGoE you are never trapped! Please never give up hope, praying for your family and friends, and sharing your insights. You could easily send anonymous emails from a local internet cafe to your JW friends and family with links to websites such as the JWN to plant seeds of doubts. If you are interested, please read the thread that I posted on 4/23/2011 on the JWN: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/209213/1/How-to-email-JWs-at-the-Brooklyn-Bethel. Do you have to get your wife and family out of the Org, or would you be happier if she was able to think and behave authentically instead of responding without thinking?

Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

ABibleStudent

14

(Belated) Hello

by ABibleStudent in

jw
friends

(belated) hello everyone,.

i joined this forum and the jwsf in june/july10.

i have posted 46 times on the jwn before realizing that new members traditionally introduce themselves and i have not.

ABibleStudent

Thank you psychiatric, mamalove, wobble, Found Sheep, flipper, skeeter1, 1975, Lozhasleft, yknot, and jamiebowers for respondingi. It is nice to meet you, also.

Mamalove, if we meet on the trails, we talk about everything but the WTBTS and JWs. My former friend loves to dance and she was not afraid to go to nightclubs without other JWs. I believe that now she only goes to nightclubs with other JWs to dance, because she is afraid to meet another worldly man like me. I do not try to cause her doubts, because she takes anything that I say about the WTBTS as being negative. I just ask her questions about how she feels, or I compliment her on helping and talking with her df'ed son. I have learned that contrary to the WTBTS' slogan that "All JWs behave and act the same" that JWs will not always act the same.

Skeeter1, I watched Worlds Apart on YouTube and even sent a link to my former friend. I really enjoyed Worlds Apart, and I hope that my former friend never feels the regret that the woman felt about Jehovah in the last scene of the movie.

Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

ABibleStudent