Posts by Essan

8

Minimus here's your opportunity

by beksbks in

jw
friends

go ahead!

ask us anything!.

wait, do you have any questions left?

Essan

Minimus, ask what the lottery numbers will be for the next draw. :)

46

Pagan Origins

by brotherdan in

so all of us that grew up as witnesses never did certain things because of them having pagan origins.

why don't we celebrate christmas?

pagan origins.

Essan

ProdigalSon, those are some interesting comments regarding the Rothschild's and Russell etc. Where did you get that information from and is there any verifiable evidence?

74

When Was The Last Time You Went To A Meeting?

by minimus in

jw
friends

i think it's been around 7 years for me.

and i never ever missed going or being with the "friends"..

Circuit assembly in 2004, I think. It was almost unbearable. I felt like vomiting every time they spoke of the "Faithful Slave" and the Governing Body interchangeably (which isn't even the Society's own teaching, half the time) and when they continually pushed the mantra "Obey the Slave", "Obey the Governing Body", "The Slave says in the Watchtower" (No, the mostly non-anointed Writing Committee 'says in the Watchtower').

I saw though the constant fear mongering and manipulative attempts to enforce strict unquestioning obedience to the Organization - in fact, they barely said anything else.

I couldn't stomach any more after that.

45

Studying my faith away

by the-illuminator81 in

i want to introduce myself.

i'm a 28 year old active, married jw from belgium.

in the preceding months (i'd say starting from about march) i've been slowly losing my faith.

Essan

What if I would just stop going and refused to speak, meet or phone with the elders? Wouldn't it be that easy?

It could if you strictly enforced it. But for that they would not have to hear any gossip about you questioning the Society. Elders are procedural creatures and procedure depends to some extent on people cooperating with the procedure. If you don't, they don't know what to do. They know how to handle vocal critics - there will be a little instruction is some booklet ("for scenario A. carry out response c") But if you give them a scenario they're not prepared for - absolute Silence - they may well just grumble, scratch their heads and walk away.

45

Studying my faith away

by the-illuminator81 in

i want to introduce myself.

i'm a 28 year old active, married jw from belgium.

in the preceding months (i'd say starting from about march) i've been slowly losing my faith.

Essan

Great post.

It's a scary but thrilling journey isn't it?

The truth will set you free, even if the truth is not what you once imagined it to be. :)

457

TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else

by UnDisfellowshipped in

trinity challenge using only the new world translation of the holy scriptures -- let us debate and reason on the scriptures about whether god almighty is a trinity, or is only one person.. on another thread, bane said that we know for a fact immediately that nearly all religions other than jehovah's witnesses are false because almost all of them believe in the trinity.

and bane claims he can "out-scripturize" anyone with the help of jehovah.

* the son was praying to the father.

Essan

@djeggnog

You said: What do you mean? I may be mistaken here, but I don't believe I made even a single comment in Titus' thread that was based on anything that you might have posted to it.
Yes, you're mistaken but it's a small matter and not worth much attention. I suggested to others in that thread that a whole host of your distracting counter-questions (you do love your counter questions) should be ignored until the actual purpose of the thread was served and you answered the questions you were originally asked first, as requested. You took exception to this and attempted to engage me in irrelevant debate (you do love irrelevant debate :) after all, we're having one right now.

You said: To what "sound Scriptural teaching" are you referring? You certainly cannot be trying to tell me that you believe yourself to be more qualified as one of Jehovah's Witnesses to teach what things the Bible teaches than I am, when I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses and you are not. Please when you find time to do so, answer this question for me.
There is no connection between "sound scriptural teaching" and Jehovah's Witnesses. But yes, obviously I feel considerably more qualified to discuss the Bible and JW doctrine thoughout it's history, seeing as you've displayed a pretty poor knowledge of both (Were you the one who had no idea about the JW's former teaching that Jehovah lived on the star Alcyone, in the Pleiades star cluster, where the anointed once expected to drift off to become immortal star dwellers?) I was a JW for a long time, and had a thorough grasp of their teachings, before the 'scales fell from my eyes', so to speak.
In fact, I'd say that for one to be a former JW is proof enough that one has a better grasp of JW doctrine, history and the Bible than a current JW, as no one with a true heart who also had a thorough grasp of all three could possibly remain a JW Loyalist.

270

WHO ARE THE FALSE PROPHETS TODAY?

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

who are the false prophets today.

by barbara anderson.

in 1991, one of the watch tower societys senior writers, colin quackenbush, told me in the privacy of his office about letters which the society had received from prominent and credible elders, not apostates (thats exactly what he said), who were concerned about the increase in accusations saying that jehovahs witnesses were false prophets.

Essan

Debator, no, the 'Goalposts" you set were unscriptural, as I proved, and were only placed there by you to try to exonerate the Society, although you had to contradict the Society to do it.

I insisted the 'goalposts' were set according to the Bible's descriptions of 'false prophets' and their own claims in which the words 'inspiration' and 'prophet' are almost never mentioned by them - despite your false claim that it was a "Bible Fact" that these words HAD to be used BY THEM in order to identify them as a false prophet.

"Looking" for the the fulfillment of Bible prophesy is OK but please don't insult our intelligence by pretending that the Society was merely "looking". They were vocally predicting Armageddon - predicting a specific DATE for Armageddon - preaching it, and claiming this insight is sure and came from God, all of which the Society has done numerous times! This COMPLETELY fits the Biblical definition for a "False Prophet" - and the very Org. you idolize admits it! You too know it full well.

You said: But again You are going beyond the bible which makes it clear the grounds for false prophecy is to say you have got inspiration, words, visions directly from God.

You're a liar Debator.

I asked you to provide verses to show that this consistent 'rule' you insist upon was uniformly shown in the Bible and you could not.

So here are a few verses - along with some Society quotes - to show that one does NOT have to specifically claim "inspiration" or even call oneself a "prophet" in order to be condemned as a 'False Prophet' as you lyingly insist and to show God's relationship to those who make false predictions and those who make true ones:

"Thus says the LORD,your Redeemer... who who foils the signs of false prophets and makes fools of diviners, who turns wise men back and makes their knowledge foolish, who confirms the word of HIS servant and fulfills the counsel of HIS messengers" Isaiah 44:20-26

"Bible prophecy shows that the Lord was due to appear for the second time in the year 1874. Fulfilled prophecy shows beyond a doubt that he did appear in 1874. Fulfilled prophecy is otherwise designated the physical facts; and these facts are indisputable. All true watchers are familiar with these facts as set forth in the Scriptures and explained in the interpretation by the Lord's special servant...Do you believe it? Do you believe that the King of glory is present, and has been since 1874? - The WT, November 1, 1922, pp.332-337

"Then Joseph said to them, "Do not interpretations belong to GOD?" "Then the chief cupbearer said to Pharaoh "a young Hebrew was there with us...he interpreted them for us...And things turned out exactly as he interpreted... Pharaoh said to Joseph, "I have heard it said of you that... you can interpret... "I cannot do it," Joseph replied to Pharaoh, "but GOD will give Pharaoh the answer... So Pharaoh asked them, "Can we find anyone like this man, one in whom is the spirit of God?" Then Pharaoh said to Joseph, "Since GOD has made all this known to you, there is no one so discerning and wise as you." - Gen 40-41

Interpretation of sacred secret's belongs only to God and can only successfully occur BY GOD, to the extent that Joseph could say of such interpretation "God did this". True interpretation is part of the work of true prophet, like Joseph and like the "prophet Daniel", therefore wrong interpretation and the preaching of wrong predictions based on wrong interpretation is the work of a "False Prophet".

"Then Daniel went to Arioch... and said to him... Take me to the king, and I will interpret his dream for him...The king asked Daniel (also called Belteshazzar), "Are you able to...interpret it?" Daniel replied, "No wise man, enchanter, magician or diviner can explain to the king the mystery he has asked about, but there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries. He has shown King Nebuchadnezzar what will happen in days to come...As for me, this mystery has been revealed to me, not because I have greater wisdom than other living men, but so that you, O king, may know the interpretation...The great God has shown the king what will take place... and the interpretation is trustworthy. The king said to Daniel, "Surely your God is the God of gods and the Lord of kings and a revealer of mysteries, for you were able to reveal this mystery." - Dan 2 "Suddenly the fingers of a human hand appeared and wrote on the plaster of the wall, near the lampstand in the royal palace. The king watched the hand as it wrote... The queen, "O king, live forever!" she said. "There is a man in your kingdom who has the spirit of the holy gods in him. This man Daniel, was found to have...the ability to interpret..Call for Daniel, and he will tell you what the writing means...the king said to him "...I have heard that you are able to give interpretations and to solve difficult problems."

Now, let's hear from those who try to interpret God's writings and so to predict the future, claiming his authority as spokesmen, and yet fail spectacularly, because, unlike the Prophet Daniel, they are "False Prophets":

"The Kingdom of God IS already begun, which is pointed out in prophecy as due to begin the exercise of power in A.D. 1878, and that the "battle of the great day of God Almighty" which WILL END in 1914 with the COMPLETE overthrow of the earth's present rulership, is already commenced." - Studies in the Scriptures Vol.2, 1906 p.101

Russell spoke of: "...the truths I present, as God's mouthpiece" and said that "this clear unfolding of truth" he proclaimed was NOT "due to any human ingenuity or acuteness of perception, but to the simple fact that God's due time has come." - WT7/15/06, p.229 Russell predicted falsely and blamed God for it, he was only 'God's mouthpiece' declaring "truth" ONLY because it was "God's due time"- that's a perfect description of a self proclaimed 'Prophet', is it not?

" Then the LORD said to me, "The prophets are prophesying liesin my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds." "Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you; they fill you with false hopes. They speak visions from their own minds, not from the mouth of the LORD."- Jeremiah 14, 23.

"The Watchtower is not the instrument of any man or set of any of men, nor is it published according to the whims of men. No man's opinion is expressed in the Watchtower. (Watchtower, Nov. 1 1931 p. 327) A blatant claim that the Watchtower contains only the words of God.

"We see no reason for changing the figures — nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, God’s dates, not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is NOT the date for the beginning, but for the END of the time of trouble." - The WT Reprints, July 15, 1894, p. 1677.

" But the PROPHET.... will be recognized as one truly sent by the LORD only if his PREDICTION comes true. " - Jeremiah 28:9 (Prophets predict, prediction indicates acting as a 'prophet', therefore failed prediction shows you are a "False prophet").

"and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people ." - Matt 24:11

"All of the Lord’s people looked forward to 1914 with joyful expectation. When that time came and passed there was much disappointment, chagrin, and mourning, and the Lord’s people were greatly in reproach . They were ridiculed by the clergy and their allies in particular, and pointed to with scorn, because they had said so much about 1914, and what would come to pass, and their ‘prophecies’ had not been fulfilled." - Light , 1930 p.194

" A sword against her false prophets! They will become fools! " - Jeremiah 50:36. "I know I made an ass of myself." - 'Judge' Rutherford.
"For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible." "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and SIGNS and LYING WONDERS, And with all DECEIVABLENESS of unrighteousness in them that perish... And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."
So do the WTBTS make use of a false and "lying sign" to supposedly prove their authority as God's spokesman? Yes!
"For 38 years PRIOR to 1914, the Bible Students, as Jehovah's Witnesses were then called, pointed to that date as the year when the Gentile Times would end. What outstanding proof that is that they were true servants of Jehovah!" - WT 1990 10/15 p. 19 "
Jehovah's witnesses pointed to the year 1914, decades in advance, as marking the START of "the conclusion of the system of things." -

Awake! 1973 January 22 p.8
But this is a complete lie:
"But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is NOTthe date for the BEGINNING , but for the END of the time of trouble. Zion's Watch Tower 1894 July 15 p.226
"The Watchtower has CONSISTENTLY presented evidence?that Jesus' presence in heavenly Kingdom power BEGAN in 1914." WT 1993 January 15 pp.5,9
"The year A.D. 1878, being the parallel of his assuming power and authority in the type, clearly marks the time for the actual assuming of power as King of kings, by our present, spiritual, invisible Lord...." Studies in the Scriptures - Thy Kingdom Come p.239
“ We would like to correct this misapprehension once for all , by stating that we do not expect Jesus to come this year, nor any other year , for we believe that ALL time prophecies (bearing upon Jesus' coming) ENDED at and before the fall of 1874" -
Zion's Watch Tower and Herald of Christ's Presence May 1 1881
1922
" This chronology is NOT OF MAN, BUT OF GOD . Being of DIVINE ORIGIN and divinely corroborated , present-truth chronology stands in a class by itself, absolutely and unqualifiedly correct .... " (Watchtower, July 15, 1922)
"Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old , particularly those named by the Apostle in Hebrews 11, to the condition of human perfection," (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, p. 89).
"The date 1925 is even more distinctly indicated by the Scriptures than 1914 ," (Watchtower, Sept. 1, 1922, p. 262).
"Our thought is, that 1925 is definitely settled by the Scriptures . As to Noah, the Christian now has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge ," (Watchtower, Apr. 1, 1923, p. 106).
So, JW's told by the Society that the likes of Abraham would definitely be raised to human life in 1925 have MORE REASON TO BELIEVE than Noah did, who was told
that the deluge would come directly by GOD! Breathtaking. What prophet ever claimed he was able to deliver a message more reliable than than one delivered by God himself ? Only the WTBS!

More coming.....

98

Do you believe the "Conscious Class" will be saved? (CHRISTIANS ONLY)

by brotherdan in

there are thousands of people sill trapped in the organization that realize that it cannot be what it claims to be: god's only true organization.

but do you think that these ones that still believe in christ and his crucifixtion will still be saved?

after all, salvation does not come from an organization.

Essan

"Yet after the resurrection only one of the three (Jesus) is sat in a submissive position at the right hand of God and the The Holy Spirit is not even mentioned."

That's the problem with typical JW reasoning, it fails to account for and harmonize all verses. You fail to really "think about it". You were shown and apparently accept that the Scriptures DO say that:

God raises Jesus.
Jesus raised Jesus.
Spirit raised Jesus.
You IGNORE that, switch issues, and simply say "Oh but he sits in a lower position at God's right hand", as if that somehow negates what has just been shown. It absolutely doesn't. You still have to account for it, and can't! And it's funny, you say this as if it "proves" the Trinity wrong, and yet Trinitarians have no problems reconciling these verses, they have no problem with Jesus being at God's right hand or the spirit not being mentioned at that point, it doesn't actually threaten their doctrinal understanding, it harmonizes with it.
That's what gets me with JW reasoning, they don't even have a good grasp of the doctrines they think they're refuting - when they actually attack 'strawmen' - and they just IGNORE Scriptures which undermine their doctrine rather than harmonizing them. The Trinitarians do an INFINITELY better job or harmonizing the Scriptures - and I say that as someone who isn't even a Trinitarian.
As a former JW I'm frequently deeply embarrassed by JW's lack of knowledge regarding the doctrines of others and their biased, clumsy and totally inefficient attempts to harmonize Scripture. That they are often so brash and arrogant while displaying such ignorance is also pretty mortifying.

309

Who really is Michael the Archangel?

by theMadJW in

jw
friends

http://www.themadjws.com/whoismichael.htm.

.

let me know what you think- for i will be adding to the info!.

Essan

WE direct people to Christ, and to his God & Father- the One HE directed people to.

LOL. Really. LOL. Everyone knows we lead them to the Organization and into total subjection to a dozen or so old men in Brooklyn.

How can we be 'directing people to Christ' when we tell them he's not actually their mediator so they are not really full Christians and they only have hope of life as the associated "belongings" - the 'carry on baggage' - of the Almighty Anointed "Faithful and Discreet Slave" ( smallprint. as represented by the 'Governing Body' and it's publishing company the Watchtower Bible and Track Society of New York. Caution, contains nuts ).

We don't 'direct' anyone to Christ, we say "nope sorry, Christ is not for you. No 'spirit of Christ' for you. You're a "belonging" of the FDS whose duty is to obey these men as you would God, or leave, and die."

This, obviously, is not the "good news" Jesus instructed be preached or that 1st C. Christians preached. it's "another gospel", for which the penalty is to be "accursed". Galatians 1:6-9.

In doing this, in insisting on this "other gospel", we have literally become exactly like the Pharisees whom Jesus condemned: "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to....You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned?" Matt 23:13, 33.

457

TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else

by UnDisfellowshipped in

trinity challenge using only the new world translation of the holy scriptures -- let us debate and reason on the scriptures about whether god almighty is a trinity, or is only one person.. on another thread, bane said that we know for a fact immediately that nearly all religions other than jehovah's witnesses are false because almost all of them believe in the trinity.

and bane claims he can "out-scripturize" anyone with the help of jehovah.

* the son was praying to the father.

Essan

Djegnogg said:P.S.: I'm glad that you rethought your earlier decision, when he told me in a previous post: "I won't be responding to you further."

Sigh, no, I said that in a different thread - The "Other Sheep" thread by Titus - indicating that I wouldn't respond to you further in that thread, in the vain hope that you'd stop using my responses there as an excuse to waffle on for pages, yet saying nothing, and so continue to avoid answering the simple questions the OP asked.
In this thread, I've no problem speaking to you. Except that endless empty speeches are clearly your modus operandi no matter what the thread or topic is and I'm not sure I can bare to sit through another of your longwinded and contradictory 'responses'. Seriously, don't you bore even yourself?
Anyway, no, for now I haven't decided to 'disfellowship' you yet for your obvious apostasy from sound Scriptural teaching.
Here, I'm still talking to you.
You lucky thing, you! :)
BTW, I have to congratulate you, as having read a few posts by the likes of yourself, TheMadJW and Debator, I was beginning to think that you all must be satirizing the worst excesses of blind, unreasonable JW's in an attempt to open other JW's eyes to the idiocy and faulty reasoning of such Watchtower Loyalists. What an excellent idea, I thought! If I was still a JW and I came here and read the kind of bizarre and twisted logic that you people employ, the scales would instantly fall from my eyes and I'd
immediately exit the Org. as fast as my legs could carry me! I'm certain that's the effect you lot will be having. It's genius. Of course, if you're serious - as I'm beginning to suspect you must be - then on the one hand that's deeply tragic, for you, yet it is still the most wonderful wake up call, as you hold a 'mirror' up to the lunacy of the WT for all visiting JW's to see, and as they gaze into it they must wonder in amazement and shock 'Did I ever really believe that nonsense? Do I really sound like that too? What was I thinking!?

Y es, it's a powerful ministry you are performing.
And for that I thank and congratulate you.