They are both responsible, but personally, I see the Society as having greater responsibility because they use deception and manipulation of which the Bros and Sister are not consciously aware.
Posts by Essan
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10Who is Really Responsible: WT teachings or JW Droids?
by cameo-d ini have come to the conclusion that jws who are following wt and the teachings of men are doing so because they are somehow incapable of making their own decisions.
is it because they are afraid of being responsible for their own actions and their own decisions in life?
do they see the wt as some sort of safe comfortable womb?
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270
WHO ARE THE FALSE PROPHETS TODAY?
by Dogpatch inwho are the false prophets today.
by barbara anderson.
in 1991, one of the watch tower societys senior writers, colin quackenbush, told me in the privacy of his office about letters which the society had received from prominent and credible elders, not apostates (thats exactly what he said), who were concerned about the increase in accusations saying that jehovahs witnesses were false prophets.
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Essan
Consfearacy said: Whatever you believe is Gospel truth should result in an organizing principle with like minded individuals in an appropriate setting, not just the internet. If Jehovah's Witnesses are counterfeit Christians than common sense would denote to unite with others that share your thinking. Demonizing others as a reason for inactivity doesn't mean anything.
That's both inaccurate and irrelevant. You are using the usual JW defense of switching the topic. You don't know us or what we do, who else we associate with and in what "setting" or if we are "inactive" or not as Christians. And it's not relevant to this discussion. We're talking about the Society. The Bible condemns the Society as a "False Prophet" as do their own publications. Nothing is going to change that , including lashing out at others or trying to switch the focus to them or other organizations.
You said: I have all of the literature published by Jehovah's Witnesses. You should give me an example of what it is your are referring to.
You need to do so much more research. Although, by the way you blithely ignore clear scriptures regarding the identification of a 'False Prophet" you don't seem inclined, as yet, to allow yourself to see the full error of the Society and so I'm not sure such research would do you much good. It's all there with references, on the net, for those who are willing to find it.
After 1925 and a catalogue of embarrassing predictive disasters and false teachings about dates, all since disavowed, (or in the case of 1914 and 1919, given different meanings) - including those for 1798, 1799, 1829, 1844, 1846, 1873, 1874, 1875, 1878, 1881, 1910, 1914, 1915, 1918, 1919, 1920 - the Society finally wised up a little, not because they realized that their former course was presumptuous, destructive and Scripturally 'damning', (except when it comes to condemning others: Awake!, October 8, 1968, p. 23) but because they were tired of looking like fools and of their stumbled membership dropping dramatically after every failed prediction. So, they became more sneaky about how they pushed their dates, but push them they did, with varying degrees of vigor and implication, including for 1931, 1932, 1941, 1951, 1954, 1975 - you really need to do a lot more research on 1975 including listening to the audio of Talks at District Assemblies given regarding 1975 which can be found online: "Don't wait until 1975, the door will be shut by then!" - District Overseer Brother Charles Sunutko 1967 - 1984, 1986, 1994, and 2000 (ministry to be completed "in our 20th century", text changed in bound volume; WT 10/15 1980 p31 )
http://www.quotes-watchtower.co.uk/1975_-_sermon.html
They began behaving like lawyers regarding their dates after 1925. They did everything they could to push their dates but were finally aware of leaving themselves the technicality of pretending that they 'didn't say for sure', while at the same time creating absolute hysteria over certain dates with their words (as in 1975), praising those who gave up and sold everything to do ask much ministry as possible in the few "remaining months before Armageddon" (1941) and saying in 75 that Armageddon may not come immediately, but soon after, and that the time difference would likely be "months, not years". If you do enough research and are honest with yourself, you'll see how wrong it was. The worst of their "false prophesies" regarding dates were prior to 1925, but they didn't stop after 1925.
You said: Aside from your obvious disagreement about the early Bible students, looking to a date for their heavenly reward, what else do you disagree with?
You see, you spin things so deceptively! I don't disagree with Bible Students 'looking', I disagree with the Society and it's leaders elevating themselves as "God's Mouthpiece" and "The Lords Special Servant" and insisting as "indisputable fact" and as of "Divine Origin" their false date predictions, which all JW's were obliged to accept! That's not "looking"! The Bible condemns it as "false prophesy"! I don't really blame the ordinary Bible Students, except for being gullible and spiritually immature, I blame their leaders of the WTBTS, the 'Organization'.
As for my disagreements with WTBTS doctrine generally - well, to quote, "If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written."
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Demon possessed furniture?? Any scriptural support?
by digderidoo ini remember instances where we told that the demons could get into the house through furniture or ornaments.
if anyone had a problem in the house with demons, they should remove anything that they may have bought second hand.
i remember one family getting rid of their carpet!.
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Essan
I'm being demonized by an old copy of the United in Worship book, as we speak.
It keeps screaming me that I'll die at Armageddon because I haven't put a report slip in the box for six years
But it's OK, I just put an open copy of Crisis of Conscience on top of it and it seems to have shut up - you can just hear a faint nervous whimpering now. :)
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270
WHO ARE THE FALSE PROPHETS TODAY?
by Dogpatch inwho are the false prophets today.
by barbara anderson.
in 1991, one of the watch tower societys senior writers, colin quackenbush, told me in the privacy of his office about letters which the society had received from prominent and credible elders, not apostates (thats exactly what he said), who were concerned about the increase in accusations saying that jehovahs witnesses were false prophets.
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Essan
Consfearacy said: "The reason I have a problem labeling Charles Taze Russel a false prophet is because while he and the early Bible students did say some things I disagree with, the “Millennial Dawners” as they refered to themselves back then, also said things I do agree with."
Oh OK, well, you use your own preferred definition of "false Prophets" and we'll use the Bible's. I'm sure your self-serving judgement on this matter is more relevant than God's anyway. You're ignoring the Bible and God's view on this as explicitly laid out in the Scriptures.
You said: You can choose to label Charles Taze Russel a false prophet because of a misunderstanding.
He's not a false prophet for a 'misunderstanding'. He's a false prophet for repeatedly preaching and teaching false predictions, as "fact" while claiming authority as "God's Mouthpiece". That's very, very different. That you choose to ignore this because you agree with some of the things he said is pretty shocking.
And you're wrong about the Society stopping predicting dates after 1925, It didn't stop until 2000 and hasn't really stopped even now.
What you are doing is resisting the Bible's clear standard because you happen to agree with some of the Society's early teachings. What you should be doing is reexamining those teachings very carefully because of being alerted to the fact that their source was, scriptural speaking, a 'false prophet'. You are also forgetting that, even if some of those teachings may be correct, "Satan keeps transforming himself into an angel of light". The false prophet's Jesus spoke of and condemned and warned us to "watch out for" were Christians, and no doubt there was much they said that was correct, or seemed so, that is why they are described as having "sheep's coverings' - they appear to be sheep. Yet Jesus says 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' These ones were even, apparently, on the lookout for Jesus return! (Matt 24:23-27) Their lies are hidden among apparent truths.
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Do Elders and Bethelites really follow this site?
by jamesmahon injust a question really and whilst i would not put it past them i sort of feel it is too 'conspiracy theory' for me.
are elders and bethelites officially sanctioned to lurk (or engage) in this or other sites to try to weedle out apostates?
does anyone have any direct experience of it happening?.
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Essan
Well if they do set people they task of monitoring this site, the must choose the most dishonest, truth-hating, men-worshipping Watchtower idolators they can find to do the job, because anyone with an ounce of integrity and love of truth wouldn't last long in the Org. after about a days reading here.
The only people immune to the truth are those who have no regard for it.
Either that or, like the example given above, almost everyone in Bethel is now a double agent, working to bring the Org down from the inside.
Oh, I hope so :)
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WHO ARE THE FALSE PROPHETS TODAY?
by Dogpatch inwho are the false prophets today.
by barbara anderson.
in 1991, one of the watch tower societys senior writers, colin quackenbush, told me in the privacy of his office about letters which the society had received from prominent and credible elders, not apostates (thats exactly what he said), who were concerned about the increase in accusations saying that jehovahs witnesses were false prophets.
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Essan
Excellent references Mary.
That's what's so funny about the Society, that have managed to utterly condemn themselves by printing explicit definitions of "False Prophets" which fit them perfectly and by saying that motivation and intent doesn't matter in such cases and still makes one "a false prophet and hence an agent of Satan". How right they are.
Now, Watchtower apologists have to reject the Society's own teachings - thereby rendering themselves apostate in the process - in order to try to get the Society off their own hook. LOL.
I love the fact that one needs nothing but the Society's own literature and the Bible to utterly expose them.
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Are You Keeping Up with the NEW LIGHT?
by UnDisfellowshipped inthe watchtower, april 15th, 2010, page 28:.
are you keeping up with increased light?.
jehovah continues to shed light upon his people.
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Essan
Here some "New Light".
At one time the Society taught that the cut off for the anointed class was 1935. People who claimed anointing after that, especially the further from 1935 they were, and they younger they were, were treated very badly in the Congs. They were treated as outcasts and loonys, because "The Society Says" they couldn't be anointed, because "The Society Says" the heavenly calling ended in 1935. Several rather dismissive and unhelpful comments were made about these ones in the in the literature over the years, casting further doubt - to put it mildly - on the possibility that these ones could be anointed.
Then, as time went on and "The Generation" doctrine was under increasing pressure, the Society found that it had almost no viable interpretations left with which to preserve the doctrine in some form.
So they decided to use the young anointed - the formerly sneered at and doubted young anointed who didn't fit the Society's 1935 cut off teaching - to save the day. Now these ones are used to hold up the disintegrating Generation doctrine. Now they are vital, so now they are accepted, because they can be made use of.
Praise Jehovah for this wonderful "New Light"
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270
WHO ARE THE FALSE PROPHETS TODAY?
by Dogpatch inwho are the false prophets today.
by barbara anderson.
in 1991, one of the watch tower societys senior writers, colin quackenbush, told me in the privacy of his office about letters which the society had received from prominent and credible elders, not apostates (thats exactly what he said), who were concerned about the increase in accusations saying that jehovahs witnesses were false prophets.
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Essan
Consfearacy,
Your comments don't harmonize with the Bible. You wrongly applied James, saying:
"Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, knowing that we shall receive heavier judgment. James 3:1 Meaning they'll be subjected to harsh criticism, but if it gets extreme and unreasonable, criticism is no longer constructive."
No, the Judgement referred to here is from God, it does not refer to the 'hash criticism' of men. God has been quite clear on His position regarding those who predict the future falsely in His name. He says they are false prophets and the penalty is death and that no one should listen to them because God did not send them. So don't moan about "harsh criticism" and pretend that the judgement is from men or that identifying a false prophet as a false prophet is somehow unjust! The judgement is from God and the criteria for recognizing these ones comes staright from the Bible and is crystal clear:
"But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him."
You go on to further misapply Scripture:
For we all stumble many times. If anyone does not stumble in word, this one is a perfect man. James 3:2
There is a difference between making a mistake in word and calling yourself "God's mouthpiece" and repeatedly preaching as fact, over decades, the end of the world on various dates! This is a career of false predictions and false teaching. It's not "oops, I stumbled". The Society stumbled others with it's false predictions, and as Jesus said regarding stumbling his followers "it would be better that they had a millstone hung around their neck and were pitched into the sea"
And how come you insist on such (unscriptural) leniency for the Society, and yet the Society shows not a fraction of such leniency to other religions and their teachers, few of whom have made so many false predictions as they? The Watchtower condemns mercilessly everyone but themselves! Well, "With the measure that you are measuring out, they will measure out to you".
You said: There's several scriptures in the Bible that shed light on the meaning of a false prophet. Matthew 7:15-20 is one of such.
Indeed, and the Society is also condemned by that Scripture. But it's not the only verse which condemns them or which discusses the identifying marks of a false prophet. But you and Debator carefully cherry pick which Scriptures regarding false prophets you want to discuss, because you know that when taken all together, they utterly expose and condemn the WTBTS.
You said: Stumbling in speech isn't an identifying mark in itself
No, but making false predictions is. See how you cherrypick issues?
You quote: 'And many false prophets will arise and mislead many'; Matthew 24:11
But you don't go on to quote what these prophets say which identifies them as false or what they 'mislead' ABOUT! Why not? They 'mislead' about the arrival of Christ! Jesus continues in Matthew 24 to give us a crystal clear identifying mark of the false prophets he was referring to:
"At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it." For... false prophets will appear... to deceive even the elect...So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man..
So, the false prophets Jesus was referring to wrongly proclaim the return of Christ and so deceives the 'elect'! This is exactly what the Society did - repeatedly, beginning in the 1870's right through to 1925! Even if you accept the WT's present teaching on 1914, this is catastrophic, but if their present teaching on 1914 is wrong too - which it is - then they are STILL doing it! Read the examples of quotes from them on the previous page! Even by this one verse the WTBTS are utterly condemned!
"Bible prophecy shows that the Lord was due to appear for the second time in the year 1874. Fulfilled prophecy shows beyond a doubt that he did appear in 1874. Fulfilled prophecy is otherwise designated the physical facts; and these facts are indisputable. All true watchers are familiar with these facts as set forth in the Scriptures and explained in the interpretation by the Lord's special servant...Do you believe it? Do you believe that the King of glory is present, and has been since 1874? - The WT, November 1, 1922, pp.332-337
Russell/The Society, claiming authority as "The Lord's Special Servant", urges all to accept the "indisputable" facts, which are "beyond a doubt", insisting that the 'elect' believe Jesus returned in 1874! But JESUS, in stark contrast, warns against these false prophets and urges us NOT to believe them! ""At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it." For... FALSE PROPHETS will appear... to deceive even the elect."
Why you Debator and others would attempt to defend that Scripturally indefensible and the Spiritually reprehensible, is quite beyond me.
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WHO ARE THE FALSE PROPHETS TODAY?
by Dogpatch inwho are the false prophets today.
by barbara anderson.
in 1991, one of the watch tower societys senior writers, colin quackenbush, told me in the privacy of his office about letters which the society had received from prominent and credible elders, not apostates (thats exactly what he said), who were concerned about the increase in accusations saying that jehovahs witnesses were false prophets.
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Essan
Consfearacy said to Mary: You really didn't say anything to back your position except use profanity and degenerating metaphors as a place holder for anything credible.
That's because the evidence - mountains of it - has already been presented over several pages in this thread. There was no need to restate it. That poster was pointing out the complete inability of JW Loyalists to counter the overwhelming evidence of the WT being a "False Prophet' and the total annihilation of their ridiculously weak and contradictory apologetics. These people have been exposed as frauds and liars, and this post you quote from reflects a degree of disgust at their dishonest, hypocritical attitude and lack of regard for the obvious facts.
And the repeated False Prophesies of the Society don't mar the Bible, they simply destroy their own reputation and claims to be God's "Channel".
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Essan
There are many similarities.
I once saw a website - which I'd LOVE to find again because it would be so useful when dealing with JW's - which had quotes from the literature of various high control religions/cults placed side by side, including those of the Mormons and JW's and others, even from the Catholics. It was STUNNING to read the quotes from other religions which sounded exactly like the Watchtower! It really opens your eyes. They nearly all harped on about:
- We are the Only True Religion
- The others are evil and only we will be saved
- Beware of Apostates and don't listen to their criticism
- Stay away from and don't talk to those Disfellowshipped.
- Obey the leadership as God's representatives
- Don't question or doubt
- Are you doing enough? (Don't even relax or feel safe! Guilt trips)
Etc. They all use the same tactics and so the experience for people in such religions is very, very similar. I wish I could find that page again. If anyone knows where it is please let me know.