Posts by clarity

9

1000 Posts

by konceptual99 in

jw
friends

wow!

i've just realised i've reached 1000 posts on the board.. this is a personal milestone and so i think i should take a moment to reflect on the last 18 plus months.. in that time i have completely lost my faith in bible, in jw doctrine and in any kind of hope for a new world as described by the gb and believed by me for 40+ years.

i have stepped down as a ministerial servant after 20 years.

clarity

Congratulations you two!

clarity

28

Profiling of an apostate

by joe134cd in

jw
friends

i must admit when i was in, the idea i had of an apostate, was an angry bitter person who would picket out side a convention.

i was looking on jwservey and found on the respondents to a servey that 54% were either active members or fading members.

this made me wonder is the organisation underestimating the extent of apostasy.

clarity

I confess ....I have been really baad.

I asked a question ....I had a doubt!

Therefore ......I am an apostate!

Ha .......clarity

21

OMG Johnny the Bethelite touched my tentacles!

by RayPublisher in

have you been touched by the tentacles of the watchtower i have and it was not like being touched by an angel!.

.

https://youtu.be/ddbggciidwa.

clarity

Yeah ...a little more Elmer in your voice....ahahhahhahhaahah!

Funny!

27

Black sheep of the family-my life as an ExJW

by bsand20 in

jw
friends

i was a 3rd generation jw, half the congregation i attended was made up of my entire mom's side of the family, 2 of the 3 elders were my grandpa and uncle.

my first memory of the organization was when they announced my mom's name in the meeting saying she had been reinstated....it was 1988 and i was 6 years old....i didn't understand it then, but when i asked my mom why was she crying and why did they say her name in the meeting, she said "it's because i've been good!".

so she went back and after a period of time assisting constantly, she was reinstated.

clarity

bsand20 .....awesome intoductory post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*

As one of our Newbies on here we are soooooo proud of

what you have come thru & survived brilliantly! Congratulations.

*

Every one of those 'stuffed shirts' has lost a wonderful human being, so

welcome to this site that has seen absolute tragedy & amazing triumphs!

*

"No more texting, no more phone calls, no more lunches, no more visits, no more calling for help with recipes, nothing. I'm guessing it had something to do with the recent convention of 2013 where the topic of disfellowhipped people came up."

*

Yes it most likely was!

Put your mind & efforts toward your husband & children,

they grow up so fast.

There is no rush........armageddon is not coming.....deal with your

relatives some other time .......

All the best bsand20.

clarity

26

What if I am a disfellowshipped public school teacher?

by bsand20 in

jw
friends

could a parent put in a complaint to the school district and request that their child be transferred out of my classroom because i am exjw?

if they give me the jw school brochure (do they still do that?

sorry its been 16years since i've been out) can i just tell them i'm familiar with their teachings or should i just pretend i'm new to their teachings?....i'm a freshman in college so i have still a long ways before this situation is presented, however i"m trying to get prepared for it.

clarity

BSand20.......none of their business!

The only thing that you might do ...is be a little nicer

to those poor little kids than many other teachers would!

Peace to you

clarity

32

What is the story behind this picture of Rutherford at a drinking party??

by EndofMysteries in

i have seen this photo several times but never any back story on it.

was this at bethel?

was this before or after the prohibition?

clarity

Check this post out from Atlantis ..."Prohibition" by Rutherford

Archive you might want!

16

Great to see you all!

by KW13 in

jw
friends

it's heartwarming to see so many new faces (and some older ones) playing their part in this thriving community.

so many more free minds!

.

clarity

Hi KW....long time no see!

32

What is the story behind this picture of Rutherford at a drinking party??

by EndofMysteries in

i have seen this photo several times but never any back story on it.

was this at bethel?

was this before or after the prohibition?

clarity

Leo has been a great source of info...............

*

Leolaia	posted 4 years ago(8/26/2009)
Post 13005 of 16234 Joined 9/1/2002	The Olin Moyle trial made frequent reference to drinking at Bethel. In his testimony to the court, Moyle described new Bethelites being broken into the habit of drinking beer (p. 359) and the frequent use of beer and "stronger stuff" by the factory staff in the evening (p. 360). He mentioned an incident in which an intoxicated factory worker rang an alarm bell repeatedly late at night as a joke (pp. 361-362). His wife Phoebe Moyle described seeing many empty liquor and whiskey bottles in the rooms at Bethel where she worked as a housekeeper (p. 1587), and she said she was teased by the brothers inside the elevator, who said that she couldn't take her liquor (p. 186). Olin also related how when he was in the elevator, "the boys would remark there, make allusions, wish they had a barrel of beer around, how nice it would be to have a barrel of beer" (p. 359). In his public letter to Rutherford (dated 7/21/1939), Olin wrote that "one can't be a real Bethelite without drinking beer" and "under your tutelage there has grown up a glorification of alcohol and condemnation of total abstinence...You have publically labelled total abstainers as prudes and therefore must assume your share of responsibility for the Bacchus-like attitude exhibited by members of the family" (pp. 1736-1737). With respect to Rutherford himself, Olin's son Peter stated that "it has also been known, albeit carefully 'covered', that Rutherford liked his women and his whiskey" (published in the December 1972 United Israel Bulletin). Canadian branch overseer Walter Salter, in a letter to Rutherford (dated 4/1/1937), declared that "I, at your orders, would purchase cases of whiskey at $60.00 a case, and cases of brandy and other liquors, to say nothing of untold cases of beer. A bottle or two of liquor would not do; it was for THE PRESIDENT and nothing was too good for THE PRESIDENT. He was heaven's favorite, why should not he have everything that would gratify his desire for comfort". Salter did not charge just alcohol consumption but excessive consumption, and declared his own role in importing liquor from Canada (probably during Prohibition). An official response to this letter was published by Clayton J. Woodworth in the 5/5/1937 issue of the Golden Age. He did not question the factualness of Salter's statements but rather justified Rutherford's liquor consumption: "It is nothing new that Jesus and His followers are accused of being winebibbers. Did that charge affect in any way Jesus' standing with His heavenly Father? Not an iota. Why did Jesus use it? He was under great nervous strain. It provided a perfect nutrient, immediately assimilable. A chiropractor, once treating Judge Rutherford and the writer at the same time, said to the judge, as he saw his back suffering from ankylosis (six vertebrae fused together by pneumonia), 'You are a miracle of God's grace.' At the same time he said to the writer, 'He is bearing a burden that would utterly crush you.' Read that paragraph twice, and make the most of it, all you hypocrites that wish to remain hypocrites to the end. You will get your wish, and your reward." It is significant that Woodworth, who is strident in his polemic and who would not hesitate to accuse Salter of lying, concedes Salter's claims but justifies Rutherford's frequent use of alcohol by (1) comparing Rutherford to Jesus, and (2) giving a medical reason for the alcohol use. He calls Salter a hypocrite not for making up facts about Rutherford's drinking but for finding fault with it. Because Woodworth was a hostile witness, what he tacitly admits is quite credible. Woodworth indicates that Rutherford was self-medicating for pain (as he was suffering "under great nervous strain" like Jesus) and it appears that alcohol was prescribed by his San Diego chiropractor Alta Eckols to treat his condition. Woodworth's statements suggest that Rutherford believed that the amount of alcohol he drank was not immoderate given his serious physical condition. Perhaps it would be immoderate for the average person who did not suffer with the pain that Rutherford suffered, but Rutherford apparently felt that his condition justified the amount of alcohol he drank in order to treat it, or that God made allowances for his lack of moderation. A series of Watchtower articles published in 1929, in fact, expressed a similar view. In the 3/15/1929 Watchtower, Rutherford wrote that people who give into "weaknesses of the flesh" are "powerless to resist" such weaknesses and "do not desire to oppose or misrepresent God ... their hearts are not wicked.... God pities the sinners and makes allowances for their weakness" (pp. 93-95). Then in the 9/1/1929 Watchtower, he wrote that the Devil had misled people to believe that "swearing, committing adultery, getting drunk, or losing one's temper, or any other of the long list of fleshly weaknesses" constitute sin unto death, but he averred that "all these things are forgiveable. This explains why David could be a man after God's own heart. His heart was loyal, but his flesh was weak" (p. 271). Jim Penton reported a number of accounts by those who knew Rutherford, including an elderly woman in San Diego who "sold him great quantities of liquor when he came to purchase medicines in her husband's drugstore", and former Bethelites who "recount tales of his inebriation and druken stupors" (Penton, Apocalypse Delayed, 1997, pp. 72-73). He also mentions an interview he conducted in April 1972 with Frank Wainright, late Secretary-Treasurer of the IBSA of Canada, wherein Wainright reported the illegal importation of liquor from the Canadian branch office to Bethel during Prohibition. Penton also talked with Carl Prosser from Winnipeg, Manitoba, who attended the 1927 convention in Toronto, where Rutherford railed against Big Business. According to Prosser, Rutherford was so drunk that the staff had a hard time getting him to the lecturn but once there, he delivered the talk compentently. Moreover Penton met a man who once belonged to the Buffalo, New York, congregation who had a picture of Rutherford in Europe drunk posing with casks of wine; there is also the well-known photo of Rutherford and the beer keg. Although not clearly instances of drunken rages, Olin Moyle mentioned in his testimony that Rutherford had violent outbursts, including one incident when he threw a chair across "the whole length of the room" (p. 1597).

Leolaia

posted 4 years ago(8/26/2009)

Post 13005 of 16234
Joined 9/1/2002

The Olin Moyle trial made frequent reference to drinking at Bethel. In his testimony to the court, Moyle described new Bethelites being broken into the habit of drinking beer (p. 359) and the frequent use of beer and "stronger stuff" by the factory staff in the evening (p. 360). He mentioned an incident in which an intoxicated factory worker rang an alarm bell repeatedly late at night as a joke (pp. 361-362). His wife Phoebe Moyle described seeing many empty liquor and whiskey bottles in the rooms at Bethel where she worked as a housekeeper (p. 1587), and she said she was teased by the brothers inside the elevator, who said that she couldn't take her liquor (p. 186). Olin also related how when he was in the elevator, "the boys would remark there, make allusions, wish they had a barrel of beer around, how nice it would be to have a barrel of beer" (p. 359). In his public letter to Rutherford (dated 7/21/1939), Olin wrote that "one can't be a real Bethelite without drinking beer" and "under your tutelage there has grown up a glorification of alcohol and condemnation of total abstinence...You have publically labelled total abstainers as prudes and therefore must assume your share of responsibility for the Bacchus-like attitude exhibited by members of the family" (pp. 1736-1737).

With respect to Rutherford himself, Olin's son Peter stated that "it has also been known, albeit carefully 'covered', that Rutherford liked his women and his whiskey" (published in the December 1972 United Israel Bulletin). Canadian branch overseer Walter Salter, in a letter to Rutherford (dated 4/1/1937), declared that "I, at your orders, would purchase cases of whiskey at $60.00 a case, and cases of brandy and other liquors, to say nothing of untold cases of beer. A bottle or two of liquor would not do; it was for THE PRESIDENT and nothing was too good for THE PRESIDENT. He was heaven's favorite, why should not he have everything that would gratify his desire for comfort". Salter did not charge just alcohol consumption but excessive consumption, and declared his own role in importing liquor from Canada (probably during Prohibition). An official response to this letter was published by Clayton J. Woodworth in the 5/5/1937 issue of the Golden Age. He did not question the factualness of Salter's statements but rather justified Rutherford's liquor consumption:

"It is nothing new that Jesus and His followers are accused of being winebibbers. Did that charge affect in any way Jesus' standing with His heavenly Father? Not an iota. Why did Jesus use it? He was under great nervous strain. It provided a perfect nutrient, immediately assimilable. A chiropractor, once treating Judge Rutherford and the writer at the same time, said to the judge, as he saw his back suffering from ankylosis (six vertebrae fused together by pneumonia), 'You are a miracle of God's grace.' At the same time he said to the writer, 'He is bearing a burden that would utterly crush you.' Read that paragraph twice, and make the most of it, all you hypocrites that wish to remain hypocrites to the end. You will get your wish, and your reward."

It is significant that Woodworth, who is strident in his polemic and who would not hesitate to accuse Salter of lying, concedes Salter's claims but justifies Rutherford's frequent use of alcohol by (1) comparing Rutherford to Jesus, and (2) giving a medical reason for the alcohol use. He calls Salter a hypocrite not for making up facts about Rutherford's drinking but for finding fault with it. Because Woodworth was a hostile witness, what he tacitly admits is quite credible. Woodworth indicates that Rutherford was self-medicating for pain (as he was suffering "under great nervous strain" like Jesus) and it appears that alcohol was prescribed by his San Diego chiropractor Alta Eckols to treat his condition. Woodworth's statements suggest that Rutherford believed that the amount of alcohol he drank was not immoderate given his serious physical condition. Perhaps it would be immoderate for the average person who did not suffer with the pain that Rutherford suffered, but Rutherford apparently felt that his condition justified the amount of alcohol he drank in order to treat it, or that God made allowances for his lack of moderation. A series of Watchtower articles published in 1929, in fact, expressed a similar view. In the 3/15/1929 Watchtower, Rutherford wrote that people who give into "weaknesses of the flesh" are "powerless to resist" such weaknesses and "do not desire to oppose or misrepresent God ... their hearts are not wicked.... God pities the sinners and makes allowances for their weakness" (pp. 93-95). Then in the 9/1/1929 Watchtower, he wrote that the Devil had misled people to believe that "swearing, committing adultery, getting drunk, or losing one's temper, or any other of the long list of fleshly weaknesses" constitute sin unto death, but he averred that "all these things are forgiveable. This explains why David could be a man after God's own heart. His heart was loyal, but his flesh was weak" (p. 271).

Jim Penton reported a number of accounts by those who knew Rutherford, including an elderly woman in San Diego who "sold him great quantities of liquor when he came to purchase medicines in her husband's drugstore", and former Bethelites who "recount tales of his inebriation and druken stupors" (Penton, Apocalypse Delayed, 1997, pp. 72-73). He also mentions an interview he conducted in April 1972 with Frank Wainright, late Secretary-Treasurer of the IBSA of Canada, wherein Wainright reported the illegal importation of liquor from the Canadian branch office to Bethel during Prohibition. Penton also talked with Carl Prosser from Winnipeg, Manitoba, who attended the 1927 convention in Toronto, where Rutherford railed against Big Business. According to Prosser, Rutherford was so drunk that the staff had a hard time getting him to the lecturn but once there, he delivered the talk compentently. Moreover Penton met a man who once belonged to the Buffalo, New York, congregation who had a picture of Rutherford in Europe drunk posing with casks of wine; there is also the well-known photo of Rutherford and the beer keg. Although not clearly instances of drunken rages, Olin Moyle mentioned in his testimony that Rutherford had violent outbursts, including one incident when he threw a chair across "the whole length of the room" (p. 1597).

posted 4 years ago(8/26/2009)

175

Where Do You Think That Plane Is?

by minimus in

jw
friends

what do you think happened?

?.

clarity

Did anyone mention that there is a Pilot being interviewed

on Coast TO Coast tonite by George Noory.....very interesting!

clarity

94

Avoid Going back to the JW's - Educate Yourself about Mind Control

by flipper in

jw
friends

i've talked with some good friends on the board about this before and we seem to be in agreement : one reason ( among many ) that some disfellowshipped jw's go back and return to the wt organization is because they are full of uneeded guilt or uneeded fear because they haven't educated themselves about how the wt society uses mind control tactics to deceive them into thinking they have " nowhere else to go " .

i understand that some dfed ones may go back to the organization for family and friends- however- it's an exrecise in futility because once you learn the truth about the truth you cannot undo what you heard.

so some may just go back and live a fake jw life to appease family- but just think of how that can damage a person's emotional and mental health playing the fake jw game the rest of their lives !

clarity

Hi flipper ....you are so right about still being under mind control.

*

I basically left in the years just after 1975, I was so unhappy &

depressed that I was becoming "weak in the faith". Tried to stick

it out but everything in my life blew up ....I stopped going to mtgs,

serve-us & association.

BUT..........I had no idea wt was wrong, I thought it was me.

*

Struggling with long hours of work, & trying to come back ...was just not

working. I wasted another 20 yrs fooling with it all!

*

Enter the computer into my life ........well......I finally found out where

the trouble was coming from. Found jwn & the rest is history!

*

So in my mind ...a big problem with jw's leaving, is that they don't

do the research & so they still don't understand that they are not at fault.

*

They keep throwing themselves into the wt trap over & over, like

a crazy bird keeps flying at a window, beating its head against the pane

untill it drops.

*

Fly free you Newbies ..........fly free!

clarity