Posts by rawe

427

If man evolved?

by tornapart in

i know anyone who believes in evolution is going to say that there is no 'if' about it.

however.... if man evolved over hundreds of thousands of years ago, why were there only about 200-300 million people alive 2,000 years ago?

surely there'd have been many billions by then?.

"That millions of years ago, species accidently wandered off and seperated far from each other" I mentioned earlier that is is unlikely that under the current circumstances humans will split into two species that live at the same time. Because there is no physical separation between one group of humans and another. However, if a group of humans left earth and colonized Mars it is possible, in fact almost certain, Martians would evolve into a new species. In the future it may then be hard to imagine the very different looking Humans and Martians once had the same a great-great-great-times-X grandmother.

If the theory of evolution is true one of the things we should see this effect. Namely we should see that when a life form becomes isolated it takes a different path and becomes unique to its environment. That is why islands were such interesting places to Darwin. Yet, the idea all have a common ancestor, should show that even a very odd life form on a remote island has some relation to another species on nearby larger land mass.

It is also important to consider every form of separation. The most common one is time. While it is important for the survival of humans that a current male and female can mate and reproduce a fertile off-spring that grows to maturity and repeats the cycle. We must remember it is impossible for a human today to mate with a human who lived 200 years ago. So for evolution to be believable we want to see some evidence of balance here. We don't want evolution so loose that new species are generated willy-nilly because the inability to inter-breed would lead to extinction. Yet evolution would not be possible if species were so solidly established that they litterally could not change.

The example of hair lice I mentioned earlier wasn't a case of wandering as much as the body (land if you will) itself changed wherein a huge vast desert of hairless region between the head and the pubic area developed. This combined with basic texture difference lead to a distinction between head lice and pubic lice. Kind of a eeewww example, but a facinating nonetheless. Maybe one day there will be an Awake! article on these wonderful creatures ;-)

Cheers,

-Randy

427

If man evolved?

by tornapart in

i know anyone who believes in evolution is going to say that there is no 'if' about it.

however.... if man evolved over hundreds of thousands of years ago, why were there only about 200-300 million people alive 2,000 years ago?

surely there'd have been many billions by then?.

rawe

Hi Lost,

"But you cannot cross breed a dog and cat, chicken and a duck etc" You can't breed a dog and a cat because they are difference species. Which of course is what we mean by species. But theory of evolution is a theory about the origin of species and in no way depends on different species being able to inter-breed. What we need to do is look backwards and ask, is it possible a dog and cat once had a common ancestor? Is that even possible? The game to play here is kill-the-theory. So... what we need to come up with is some specific evidence that would show there is no way a dog and a cat once had a common ancestor.

Closely related species such as a donkey and horse make it easy to imagine they once had a common ancestor. But the theory of evolution goes far beyond that, it posits that even the most wildly different life forms once had a common ancestor. Thus a blade a grass and an elephant, according to the theory, stem from a common ancestor.

Cheers,

-Randy

427

If man evolved?

by tornapart in

i know anyone who believes in evolution is going to say that there is no 'if' about it.

however.... if man evolved over hundreds of thousands of years ago, why were there only about 200-300 million people alive 2,000 years ago?

surely there'd have been many billions by then?.

rawe

Hi Lost,

"Yet the Kennel club has refused to be active and address the matter." At the moment it is unlikely human evolution that is ongoing from generation to generation will produce a new species that lives at the same time. A key ingredient to the theory of evolution is the effect of isolated populations that find themselves in a new environment. For example, if humans were to colonize Mars, then stopped inter-breading with Earthlings, over time Martians would almost certainly become a related by separate species from humans. What the Kennel club is doing is creating a form of isolation, where gene selection is creating breeds, that in extreme cases could not inter-breed due to physical differences. You could still inter-breed a Great Dane with a Chihuahua if you used some mid-way bridge breeds to help. I have heard of natural cases of this with birds, but must admit to never having looked it up.

In regards to humans a fascinating case is that of lice that live in our hair. The loss of body hair has created a form of isolation, where in head lice are now a different species than pubic hair lice. DNA sequence comparisons and rate of mutation in this case has been used as a basis to estimate how long ago humans lost body hair.

"I find gene diversity fascintating in that you can selective breed different types within a species. But I have yet to see any evidence of successful cross-species breeding and reproduction." Of course the inability to inter-breed is the definition of species. After I read Darwin's book On The Origin of Species, it took me awhile to understandy why he was going on and on about hybrids. Finally I got it (I can be a bit slow with this stuff)... if two species had a common ancestor as the theory of evolution asserts is true of all species, then in some species the separation hasn't progressed so far that cross breeding is impossible. Thus a donkey and a horse can mate and produce a mule, a hybrid that is typically sterile. They can do this, because their common ancestor is not too far in the past and different from either.

Cheers,

-Randy

427

If man evolved?

by tornapart in

i know anyone who believes in evolution is going to say that there is no 'if' about it.

however.... if man evolved over hundreds of thousands of years ago, why were there only about 200-300 million people alive 2,000 years ago?

surely there'd have been many billions by then?.

rawe

Hi Tornapart,

"I know anyone who believes in evolution is going to say that there is no 'if' about it. However..."

Evolution is of course a scientific theory that explains the origin of species. Like all scientific theories it should be believed based on its ability to explain and predict things we find in the natural world. Nonetheless there are still many specific things about the arrival of a given species such as us (homo sapiens) that still being discovered.

"If man evolved over hundreds of thousands of years ago, why were there only about 200-300 million people alive 2,000 years ago? Surely there'd have been many billions by then?"

I think it would be helpful to break your question up here a bit. Please bear with me.

"If man evolved" seems to imply a single event in time that happened then remained static. I am the father of four children, each of my girls is 1 evolutionary generation from me. My first born has now given birth to my first grandchild, who is 2 evolutionary generations from me. I have found it best to think of evolution as a continuum, wherein 1 generation to the next always continues to be of the same species, but there is no specific hard barriers that would prevent a given line of descent from accumulating enough DNA difference to qualify as a genuinely new species.

"over hundres of thousands of years ago" is based on the initial study of DNA that is passed through females only. The mitochondrial DNA you have should be nearly identical to your mother and her mother, etc. Only mutations can effect this DNA. Based on estimates of the rate of mutational changes to this DNA it was worked out that homo sapiens are in the range of 100,000 to 250,000 years old. Since then a sequence of DNA unique to the Y chromosome has been used to cross-check this work. The Y-chromosome DNA of course passes through the male line only and is unaffected by DNA from the mother. The two studies build confidence in the 100K to max 250K numbers.

"why were there only about 200-300 million people alive 2,000 years ago?" This is a question about population dynamics. One part of the answer is the power of exponential growth of a population left unchecked by other forces. Thus humans were able to move their population number from 1 billion to 7 billion in little over 100 years! If we imagine human population was very small 100K years ago, perhaps as little as a few thousand it takes time and some good fortune to take that number up to the range of 100s of millions. Some have already suggested forces that would keep a population in check, such as disease, disasters and competition for resources, etc. However, I think it is kinda interesting to look at the flip side of this problem. If the human population was being kept in check with very little upward movement what might have released the flood gates of growth?

A fun documentary to watch on this subject is "How Beer Made the World." It is a bit tongue and cheek, but it does touch upon what must have certainly been a few of the major factors. The ending of the last ice age created a favorable conditions for humans to learn to farm. Small but significant mutations may also be very recent such as the FOXP2 sequence combined with increased brain power unleashing our ability to communicate and thus drive our numbers up. Even the act of cooking food, which is connected fire, has been seen by some as a key to allowing human brain power to increase.

What you're doing though is good. In considering any scientific theory we should look for ways to kill it. In fact for a theory to qualify as scientific there must be some method to show it is false. If DNA mutation and recombination were impossible, for example, it would deal a severe blow to the theory of evolution. Time and reproduction rates are also important, if enough time were not available or reproduction rates too low, evolution would be in trouble as a theory. Your question is there too much time, such that we should expect higher population numbers, is a good question and without a proper answer might get our understanding of life on earth in trouble.

Cheers,

-Randy

6

Great Meetup in Phoenix AZ yesterday!!

by Gayle in

about 28-30 of us there for two hours at the phoenix library.

alot of personal experiences of those being raised jws and experiencing shunning!

it was filmed but sensitivity was certainly given for those there, were several there, who could not be filmed because of jw family yet.

rawe

Hi Gayle,

It was so nice to see you and others! Thanks for reaching out to the Chandler Ex-JW meetup to help with this -- it was really wonderful, if at times, painful to hear some of the accounts!

Cheers,

-Randy

1

Shun Run 2013 - Good turn out!

by rawe in

jw
friends

20 made it out for our shun run 2013. we walked the 2.3 miles, then attend a meetup at the library.

although we planned only for 1 hour at the library the speaking went on for additional 45 minutes, with no objections or anyone falling asleep (acts 20:9).

this is a bit cheesy and hopefully no one will mind too much, but i'll let you know i posted more details and pictures over at the yuku ex-jw forum: http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com.

rawe

Hi Everyone,

20 made it out for our Shun Run 2013. We walked the 2.3 miles, then attend a meetup at the Library. Although we planned only for 1 hour at the library the speaking went on for additional 45 minutes, with no objections or anyone falling asleep (Acts 20:9). This is a bit cheesy and hopefully no one will mind too much, but I'll let you know I posted more details and pictures over at the Yuku Ex-JW forum: http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com

If you look in the "The Help and Discussion For Ex-JWs" area there are posts and discussions. The "Picture Forum" as 8 pictures.

Thanks goes out to everyone, who was able to come out and support this event! But also thanks to the many kind folks here on this forum and over at Ex-JW yuku forum for being there in spirit and posting words of encouragement. If my circumstances permit, I would like to run the event again next year -- 2014 -- ah, that seems significant, ;-)

Cheers,

-Randy

5

Shun Run 2013 - Final Booster & Details

by rawe in

jw
friends

welcome to the shun run 2013 show love, don't shun.

every year thousands of individuals leave the faith of jehovah's witnesses.

although we have asked the leadership to consider softening their stance on extreme shunning it seems they've chosen the opposite course.. in fact the watchtower study for march 10, 2013 was an article entitled: let nothing distance you from jehovah .. paragraph 17 acknowledged the pain shunning causes in a family, when it said:.

rawe

Hi Robert,

I most often post on the yuku ex-jw forum than here. When I decided to share my life story, one of the things I did was use my real name. Since then I've been operating in that mode. Thus in the letters I've sent to SDB:SSY (the otherwise anonymous JW at HQs who wrote me) I signed off with my full name and post that. Not all ex-Witnesses are in a position to do that of course, so I do feel fortunate that I can. It can give folks who might want to join our Chandler meetup group confidence about who they are meeting. So... having decide that, I wouldn't want to reverse towards an anonymous approach, but it does mean I self-impose a few limits on what I do on FB.

Your post does remind me, that I need to shoot an email over to the other organizer with your suggestion. I'll do that after this post.

Cheers,

-Randy

5

Shun Run 2013 - Final Booster & Details

by rawe in

jw
friends

welcome to the shun run 2013 show love, don't shun.

every year thousands of individuals leave the faith of jehovah's witnesses.

although we have asked the leadership to consider softening their stance on extreme shunning it seems they've chosen the opposite course.. in fact the watchtower study for march 10, 2013 was an article entitled: let nothing distance you from jehovah .. paragraph 17 acknowledged the pain shunning causes in a family, when it said:.

rawe

Hi Robert,

I'm the organizer of the Chandler, AZ Ex-Jehovah's Witnesses meetup and we don't have a FB page (we're on meetup.com). However, the West Phoenix group does, so I will pass along that suggestion. I have a FB account, but keep my posts about the faith fairly neutral out of respect for a few extended family members who are in the faith.

Cheers,

-Randy

5

Shun Run 2013 - Final Booster & Details

by rawe in

jw
friends

welcome to the shun run 2013 show love, don't shun.

every year thousands of individuals leave the faith of jehovah's witnesses.

although we have asked the leadership to consider softening their stance on extreme shunning it seems they've chosen the opposite course.. in fact the watchtower study for march 10, 2013 was an article entitled: let nothing distance you from jehovah .. paragraph 17 acknowledged the pain shunning causes in a family, when it said:.

rawe

Hi Everyone,

Welcome to the Shun Run 2013 – Show Love, Don't Shun. Every year thousands of individuals leave the faith of Jehovah's Witnesses. Although we have asked the leadership to consider softening their stance on extreme shunning it seems they've chosen the opposite course.

In fact The Watchtower study for March 10, 2013 was an article entitled: LET NOTHING DISTANCE YOU FROM JEHOVAH .

Paragraph 17 acknowledged the pain shunning causes in a family, when it said:

It is normal, therefore, to be deeply grieved when a beloved family member leaves Jehovah. “I was devastated,” says one sister whose daughter was disfellowshipped. “I wondered, ‘Why did she leave Jehovah?’ I felt guilty, and I blamed myself.”

Here a grieved mother wonders why her daughter would make such a choice, yet the leadership of Jehovah's Witnesses demand she not take logical step of asking her directly. Rather Jehovah's Witnesses demand a “resolute stance” against the former member, that includes having no contact, even through e-mail!

Really, what your beloved family member needs to see is your resolute stance to put Jehovah above everything else —including the family bond. . . .Do not look for excuses to associate with a disfellowshipped family member, for example, through e-mail.

The West Phoenix and Chandler Ex-Jehovah's Witnesses meetup groups are happy to be hosting a public awareness event to bring attention to these cruel family-dividing policies. Our event is primarily intended to be of encouragement to all who have left the faith or considering this option. There is life beyond Jehovah's Witnesses and although shunning is painful it is possible to cope.

Please plan on arriving at the west parking lot of Papago Park by about 11:55am on Sunday, March 24, 2013. From the south side you turn off of E Van Buren St onto N Galvin Pkwy. The first left off N Galvin Pkwy will bring you to the west parking lot. We will leave at noon heading north on the east Double Butte Loop trail #5, keeping right until it takes you around the Butte, over to the fence by the golf course and back to the parking lot. It should take about 50 minutes to walk. For those planning on running it is 2.3 miles of relatively flat dirt trail. Bring the normal summer time supplies of water, sun screen and at hat.

When we get back to the Ramada we will unroll our 6' x 3' Shun Run 2013 banner for picture taking. If you do not wish to have your picture taken, please let us know – we understand!

Our combined meetup will then convene at the Burton Bar Public Library. The address is: 1221 N Central Ave, Phoenix, AZ. Our meeting will be held in the Lecture Room on the fourth floor.

Our meetup is not like an assembly of Jehovah's Witnesses. We are not concerned about up-holding the “image” of an “organization.” Our speakers will speak from the heart and share their unique perspectives. Expect to be informed and moved by the real story of what it is like to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses, discover the awful truth about the truth, then make the painful decision to leave.

Randy – Welcome – 2:00 to 2:05 ( 5 min )

Jonathan – Why being one of Jehovah's Witnesses was the best thing that ever happened to me. - 2:05 to 2:17 ( 12 min )

Elizabeth – Shunning -- Impact and coping. 2:17 to 2:29 ( 12 min )

Matthew – Matters of life and death – 2:29 to 2:36 ( 7 min )

Christine – Role of “Sisters” – 2:36 to 2:43 ( 7 min )

Curtis – Leaving the One True Church – 2:43 to 2:55 ( 12 min )

Randy – In Conclusion – 2:55 to 3:00 ( 5 min )

I hope as many as possible are able to support the event.

Cheers,

-Randy

35

Shun Run 2013

by rawe in

jw
friends

i am the organizer of the chandler, az ex-jw meetup group.

last year our group organized a "shun run".

nine of us walked and ran to bring attention to the issue of shunning.

rawe

Hi sacolton,

That is very cool! I had Ts made year at a local shop in Scottsdale and this year I order 10 Ts online. I will definately direct folks to your site if we need extras.

Cheers,

-Randy