Posts by rawe

107

WHy Have You Turned YOur Back On The Messiah

by cassuk11 in

ok so you got out of the watchtower society after discerning it was false.

what is amazing is how many have turned their back on the king or was it they had no faith in the first place and the spiritual food they received did not help them stand upon a rock.

jesus the christ your saviour is a living breathing being with emotions.

rawe

Hi Cassuk11,

"I would encourage you to ente rinto the spitiual arrangement not made by human hands.In there you will see your saviour he will reveal himself to you"

Fair enough. However, your language here is highly abstract. You need to be more specific for this invitation to make any sense to me. Likewise, I would need to know how the "saviour" would "reveal himself" to judge what this means.

Without being too personal, can you help me understand a bit more about yourself. You seem to be a believer in Jesus as a living personal saviour, yet against organized religion, is that correct? Do you associate with any group then? Are you a former member of Jehovah's Witnesses? What is your view of the Bible, that is the widely circulated Protestant canon from Genesis to Revelation? What view do you hold on Genesis creation account? What is your view of the theory of evolution? How do you feel about scientific method? And finally... not to ask too many things, Occam's Razor?

Knowing your views on these items will help me better address your invitation above.

Cheers,

-Randy

ps. You may have already answered some of these question -- I must confess that I have not read each post in this thread.

pps. My answer to the question above are: (a) I am not a member of any religious organization, (b) I am a member of PAMG (Phoenix Atheist Meetup Group), but don't meet with them that often. I am the organizer of the Chandler, Ex-JW meetup group. (c) I was one of Jehovah's Witnesses most of my life, baptized in 1981, left the faith in 2007. (d) I view the Bible as a remarkable book, continue to regularily read it, but don't believe it has non-human origins. (e) I see the creation account of Genesis as remarkably uninformed about the history of life on earth. (f) I accept the theory of evolution as the best explanation of how life on earth changes over time and is all related. (g) I see the scientific method as one of the most remarkable breakthrough tools in the discovery of objective truth. (h) I think Occam's Razor has proven a great tool in selecting the correct choice when faced with two or more explanations.

76

Thoughts on Jesus' Resurrection

by Perry in

i think that in our various discussions about life after the wt, we many times forget about the cornerstone of christian life - the resurrection.

the implications of the existence a man who holds the power of life and death is manifold.

it makes discussions about the existence of god obsolete.. for all of scientists' accomplishments they have never been able to make even one amobea come alive from non-life.

rawe

Hi Perry,

"A large crowd of more than 500 eyewitnesses saw the risen Jesus Christ at the same time. The Apostle Paul records this event in 1 Corinthians 15:6 . He states that most of these men and women were still alive when he wrote this letter, about 55 A.D."

Since leaving the faith, I see 1 Cor 15 in almost the exact opposite way a believer does. At verse 12, Paul says this:

" But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? "

Isn't that odd? If the resurrection of Jesus was so well known and such a cornerstone of Christian faith, why would "some" say there is no resurrection? Paul is addressing, not oppossers but, believer in Corinth. There is no question, Paul punches hard on the point in this chapter, but it now strikes me as he doth protest too much.

Cheers,

-Randy

107

WHy Have You Turned YOur Back On The Messiah

by cassuk11 in

ok so you got out of the watchtower society after discerning it was false.

what is amazing is how many have turned their back on the king or was it they had no faith in the first place and the spiritual food they received did not help them stand upon a rock.

jesus the christ your saviour is a living breathing being with emotions.

rawe

Hi Xanthippe,

"I loved God and Jesus and I sacrificed my life to pioneer but when I realised that way of life was rubbish where were THEY?"

Thanks for post this! My skeptisim built over many years, 1995 until I left in 2007[1]. Your post reminded me that many in the faith take it seriously and have the kind of faith Cassuk11 describes. One would also think it would be reasonable that Jesus would reward such faith, even if was mistaken, once a person left. Alas, for many, such as yourself it doesn't work out that way.

Cheers,

-Randy

[1] I did love the faith and was deeply involved along with my family. Although I often aux-pioneerd I never was a pioneer. I do think now I subconsciously limited my mental engagement and did things (saved for retirement, stressed the need for post-secondary education for my girls, never stressed the big A, etc) that limited the burn when we did eventually leave.

107

WHy Have You Turned YOur Back On The Messiah

by cassuk11 in

ok so you got out of the watchtower society after discerning it was false.

what is amazing is how many have turned their back on the king or was it they had no faith in the first place and the spiritual food they received did not help them stand upon a rock.

jesus the christ your saviour is a living breathing being with emotions.

rawe

Hi Jam,

"For the life of me I can't understand why intelligent people believe the stories in the bible. How can theologians who knows the bible and have read it several times still believe it to be 100% truth. What is it that I am missing."

As per the theory of evolution our brains are adapted not so much as truth detectors, but instead for our survival. Since humans survive in groups and are very social there is a great deal pressure to accept what the group believes as true. In this regard I find how science attempts to uncover objective truth very telling. For example, the very idea that hypothesis can be considered "scientific" only if there is some way it can be clearly proven wrong. Then the hypothesis only attains the elevated status of a theory only after rigorous attempts to kill the hypothesis have failed.

Thus it genuinely can be difficult to parse truth from complete nonsense when articulate adult leaders of a community insist the nonsense is real.

What I now find interesting about the Bible in addtion to the direct things you mention (the Adam and Eve story, the Jonan story, the Baalam story, etc), but a some of the more subtle patterns. One pattern in particular strikes me rather strongly, and that is the scope of the stories involving miracles changes over time. The story of Noah is world wide. The story of Moses involves all of Egypt. By the time of Jesus all the miracles shrink in scope and involve only a few people in the area directly around Jesus.

There is a simple and obvious reason for this -- to make unbelievable stories, beliavable, setting is important and a key is making the setting just out of reach. The bigger the story the more remote and distant the setting must be. Thus, Star Wars, opens with "A long time ago and in galaxy far far away..."

Cheers,

-Randy

107

WHy Have You Turned YOur Back On The Messiah

by cassuk11 in

ok so you got out of the watchtower society after discerning it was false.

what is amazing is how many have turned their back on the king or was it they had no faith in the first place and the spiritual food they received did not help them stand upon a rock.

jesus the christ your saviour is a living breathing being with emotions.

rawe

Hi Cassuk11,

"Ok so you got out of The Watchtower Society after discerning it was false."

Much depends on what one finds is false. For me it was a couple things, the first being the impossibility of the flood account in the Bible being literally true. The second was the dishonest way the theory of evolution was treated in the publications.

"What is amazing is how many have turned their back on the King or was it they had no faith in the first place and the spiritual food they received did not help them stand upon a rock."

There is little question Jehovah's Witnesses miss the essence of Christianity -- namely the focus on Jesus as the Christ. How many Witnesses even know that "Jehovah" never appeared in NT writing? So, I can see how one who leaves the Witness faith could do so once discovering this disconnect between what is presented as Christianity in NT vs Jehovah's Witnesses focus on -- "Jehovah" and obedience to an organization.

"Jesus the Christ your saviour is a living breathing being with emotions. He want usto ge tto know him ,to follow him, to call upon him in days of trouble, .He want us to be part of the true churhc, a one not made by human handes."

I simply don't see any evidence such incredible claims are true. Rather Jesus, like all other humans of his day, are now dead. The presentation of his death on a cross at the hands of the Romans could very well be true. That Christainity, growing up outside the middle of Jewish system, from which it sprang and not being very connected to physical things like a temple, I can easily see how such a belief system would focus on the spirtual, i.e. things, "not made with human hands."

"Peace and Love"

Amen! I believe the healthiest forms of faith stress peace and love and are ones that are personal. They don't focus on an organization, especially where one is not to question the leader. Without a doubt, your love of Jesus and his message comes across. I am sure it can be frustrating to think, Ex-Witnesses, who are now atheists such as myself, have somehow been ruined by our former faith, or as you suggest, never had faith to begin with. However, I don't think that is the correct way to think about it. For me, leaving the faith, was turning my back, not on Jesus, but on falsehood.

Cheers,

-Randy

15

Question: In what cases is a transfusion of whole blood or the 4 wt prohibited components the only lifesaving solution?

by Daniel1555 in

dear friends,.

my mother in law said, that bloodless medicine works in all situations.. .

i don't have a lot of medical experience.

rawe

Hi TD,

Thank you for those posts! It is sometimes incredible what modern medicine can accomplish!

Cheers,

-Randy

15

Question: In what cases is a transfusion of whole blood or the 4 wt prohibited components the only lifesaving solution?

by Daniel1555 in

dear friends,.

my mother in law said, that bloodless medicine works in all situations.. .

i don't have a lot of medical experience.

rawe

Hi Daniel1555,

"My mother in law said, that bloodless medicine works in all situations."

Twice in my life I faced the issue of blood transfusions and both times refused. The first time was in Canada in the 1980s when I was in the hospital for a bleeding ulcer. My blood count dropped to 5.0. Since then I have moved to the USA. However while on vacation in 2001 in Canada I fell out of tree and seriously injured myself. The doctors in Prince George, BC, performed emergency surgery to remove my spleen and did so without blood.

Thus, I had a fairly positive view of my Witness-inspired view of blood and medicine. In fact, even after leaving the faith, I continued to carry my medical directive (no blood) card for about a year.

Eventually, a couple things started to make me think about this issue more deeply. One was my wife's refusal of an epidural blood patch as an option is something should go wrong during the birth of our last daughter. My wife refused believing that once blood had left the bood it should not be returned. Only later on did we realize that epidural blood patch had been designated as acceptable by the faith. Perhaps even more shocking was plasmapheresis had also in recent years been given the green light -- even though blood completely leaves the body.

In Canada I was very aware of the tainted blood scandal, wherein Canada was slow to start testing for HIV. You can bet that made me pretty glad to have avoided that first transfusion. If you Google Horace Krever you can read about this.

Eventually, though I asked myself this question: What expertise do I have on this issue? Frankly most things I knew about the issue had come from Watchtower publications.

My conclusion was this: I am not a medical expert, so really I have no basis to really comment on how effective blood or blood components might be in any given situation. In general though I know thousands upon thousands of procedures involving blood products are done every day. In one case I did write to the University for the source of a Awake! quote that was negative about blood. The provocative title of news article Awake quote was "Banked Blood Could Do More Harm Than Good." When I followed up the source, it was very clear the researchers involved were tackling the issue of how blood is stored after collection and how that can be improved. At the very top of the article it cited references to the effectiveness of blood transfusions. In any regards, why would these researchers even be trying to find a more effective way to store blood, if blood transfusions did "harm" -- the impression Awake! left with its readers.

Finally, I must say, I was impressed with Greg Stafford (Christian Witnesses of Jah & Elihu Books) letter to the Governing Body on the subject of how blood is presented in the Bible. I'm an atheist and don't agree with Greg's religious views in general, but I do credit him for helping me see it is more consistent to see blood in the Bible as sacred and life-sustaining and therefore should not be consumed as food. Indeed medical use of blood, does not involve consuming it as food.

Cheers,

-Randy

55

"You knew what the consequences were when YOU decided to leave The Truth. This is YOUR decision and the outcome is YOUR responsibility."

by nicolaou in

how many of us have had to deal with a version of that retort?!

it's hurtful and i suspect - for some - that's partly because of the nagging feeling that our families may have a point.. but do they?.

i was 15 when i got baptised, is it reasonable that as the 50 year old man i'll be on my next birthday i continue to be held to a decision i made as a schoolboy?.

rawe

Hi Nic,

Randy, I'm struggling to pin down my reasons but your post really pissed me off.

Please don't read my post as if I'm suggesting it applies to you or anyone else. It is how I personally processed my decision. In other words, I knew beforehand what the consequences would be and for me I could have easily avoided them. Simply by either remaining in the faith, or after leaving deciding not to openly celebrate Christmas. Is the thrust of the "you knew the consequences" a blame the victim approach? Absolutely! That is what the Witness is trying to do, and it is the Witness that I'm addressing, not you or anyone else who is the victim of shunning.

Once *I* am willing to accept the consequence -- lets just say, even simply for the sake of the argument -- *then* where does the reasoning go? And that is the point I'm trying to make. Our Witnesses friends aren't really making the rest of the journey. As if to say, that we *should* have chosen to avoid the consequences and everything would be okay? No it wouldn't! We would, after knowning what we know, be found living an immoral life, by giving tacit support to an organization we now know is bringing harm to people. That is intolerable and as a consequence, we had to leave. That's my point. I appolgise if it doesn't always come across as well as I would like.

Take care,

-Randy

55

"You knew what the consequences were when YOU decided to leave The Truth. This is YOUR decision and the outcome is YOUR responsibility."

by nicolaou in

how many of us have had to deal with a version of that retort?!

it's hurtful and i suspect - for some - that's partly because of the nagging feeling that our families may have a point.. but do they?.

i was 15 when i got baptised, is it reasonable that as the 50 year old man i'll be on my next birthday i continue to be held to a decision i made as a schoolboy?.

rawe

Hi Nicolaou,

You knew what the consequences where when YOU decided to leave The Truth. This is YOUR decision and the outcome is YOUR responsibility.

Dear Witness Friend,

To a large extent I agree with that. I might add that severing as an elder gave me even better insight into what may happen when I left the faith. The only serious objection I have with this statement is the phrase "The Truth", which is in reality merely a euphemism for "the faith." Respect for what is true and rejection of what is false, was a key component of why I left the faith.

Did I know the potential consequences? Absolutely -- in enough detail I was able to predict them.

Did I decide to leave the faith? Absolutely. It was my decision to leave. Nothing other than than a love for truth and rejection of falsehood caused me to leave.

Must I accept responsibility for the consequences? Yes, I agree with that too.

However, accepting the responsibility of decisions we personally make is not one and the same as declaring the consequences just and righteous. When young black students and some of their white friends purposefully sat at white-only counters and asked to be served, some were yelled at, spit upon and even beaten up. Their knowledge that such consequences might await them, did not justify the consequence itself. Or to use a Biblical example, when Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego refused to bow down and worship the image of gold, they took responsibility for their action, but in so doing showed the consequence itself to be wrong and immoral.

But what about you? Are YOU making decisions and willing to accept consequences? In real truth, isn't it the case a "decision" to shun is not something individual Witnesses are making, but instead more of a matter of being obedient -- to bow down to the image of gold as it were? That the shun spigot can be turned and and off at will by the men leading the organization? Do not the facts and truth of history show this? At one moment, non-baptized, but designated "disapproved associates" were shunned, but after a single Watchtower lesson, they were not?

Cheers,

-Randy

119

How many of you followed the WTS direction on education years ago and have been screwed by it?

by Julia Orwell in

jw
friends

i'm really interested in this question because i've heard for years that if you forgo further education and go pioneering, when you have a family down the track you will get a good job because jehovah will provide for you because you pioneered.

as long as i was a kool-aid drinker, even then, i thought, "how does pioneering pay your bills?

surely education should come first.

rawe

Hi Julia,

How many of you followed the WTS direction on education years ago and have been screwed by it?

I did wind up following the advice. But for me, I don't feel it worked out too bad.

I fell in love with computer programming when I first encountered it in grade 12 (1982). I took computer science 11 which was offered for the first time that year. With no job, still living at home with my parents who were on welfare, I decided to go back to high school for additional year. I took computer science 12 that second year.

When that year ended, I did apply to go to college and get a student loan. I did not know what else to do to further my interest in computer science. Nonetheless, I felt like I had deeply betrayed the faith by even applying for college. When my loan application ran into problems I took it as a sign and dropped the idea.

After working as a construction laborer in Fort McMurray, AB, I returned to Quesnel, where I got a computer-related job for the school district. I was employed both as a teacher of adult education computer courses as well as the defacto PC support person. I also designed and wrote a student registration system for district as well as a few other programs.

Eventually I would be hired by West Fraser where I worked in their IT department.

So... from a career perspective I have wound up doing exactly what I had wanted and to this day still love going to work. Since I didn't take the traditional route, I also did not wind up with any student loans. Furthermore, my connection to the Witness faith did help me with some basics like reading, writing and public speaking. I also give the faith the credit for my interest in the Bible, which continued with me, despite leaving and being an atheist.

So... 100% good, right? Ah, no not exactly. I have run into some interesting issues. Without a degree, I have felt the pressure and expense to pursue industry certifications. Some of these are expensive! When we decided to move to the USA my visa application was delayed, as my work experience was evaluated by the INS to see if it was the equivalent of a degree.

When I struggle with spelling and grammar, I do think this reflects no real post-secondary education. Basics of calculus and algebra are also missing. I do try and improve of course, but time is limited. I had an on-site interview with Google and this gap seemed obvious to me. Both young guys who interviewed me were recent ASU grads and while I could explain my approach to solving algorithms in ways that makes sense to me, it was clear there was a "language gap."

I love supporting my daughters in their post-secondary education. Both my wife and I made that a priority, even when we were in the faith. My oldest is an RN, my second is an art major, my third is at St. John's College (a 'great books' college) being a philosophy major. My fouth is going into 4th grade. And... we're slowly going broke, but enjoying life!

Cheers,
-Randy