Posts by rawe

16

The Sudden Catastrophic Collapse of Evolutionary Time

by Perry in

i have met dr. gentry personally and found his reasearch on readio-halos fascinating.

it has been unanswered in published scientific journals, though lots of unscientific "just so" theories abound on the internet.

this video is a nice overview of several processes that are in much conflict with the worldview of materialists.

rawe

Hi Perry,

I didn't want to comment specifically on the Polonium Halos in my first post, since it has been awhile since I've read material on this. I just re-read this article: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/po-halos/violences.html

The author, John Brawley, is an amateur scientist, however I was impressed by the length he went to study this issue and produce a report. It takes awhile to read the report, so if you stop before reaching the end, you'll miss a funny bit about him trying to get people to let him on their land to get samples. To quote him: "[some from a] high-security mining operation and could not wait to get me the hell off their property."

After his research and examining several examples his conclusion was the Polonium Halos are mostly likely formed by Radon-222. This is consistent with other reports I have read about this. In any regards, it is telling that Dr. Gentry is trying to hang so much on one thing, without considering many lines of evidence that contradict the Genesis creation account and Noah's flood. I mentioned a few above, but there are many -- even simple things like asking would enough population be available after the flood to build Stonehenge, The Great Wall of China and the Pyramids of Egypt? Or why don't we find evidence of lemurs outside of Madagascar?

I think the best approach to these things is to accept the theories that are most encompasing of all lines of evidence. Yet at the same time appreciate there will always be outliers wherein some small bits of data doesn't seem to fit. Such might indicate a refinement in our theories is required, but jumping to some wild conclusion that is opposed to mountains of other evidence based on an unexplained anomaly is not productive.

Here is John Brawley's conclusions. If you feel inclined to comment it would be appreciated, but in any regards I enjoy the opportunity these threads create to discuss such things.

"In Conclusion, I believe that Radon-222 is the most likely candidate for the source of certain "Polonium-218" halos in biotite mica. The process envisioned is most consistent with the data (including some observational data not mentioned by previous researchers), and providentially is unique in its characteristics: Radon is an inert gas, the only gas in the Uranium-238 decay chain, having the thermodynamic ability and more than enough time to migrate about in the mica, a few atoms at a time. Also significant is the apparent impossibility of distinguishing Radon-222 halos from Polonium-218 halos under the microscope."

Cheers,

-Randy

16

The Sudden Catastrophic Collapse of Evolutionary Time

by Perry in

i have met dr. gentry personally and found his reasearch on readio-halos fascinating.

it has been unanswered in published scientific journals, though lots of unscientific "just so" theories abound on the internet.

this video is a nice overview of several processes that are in much conflict with the worldview of materialists.

rawe

Hi Perry,

One of the most powerful quotes in the book Life How Did It Get Here? - By Evolution or Creation was this one from Robert Gentry:

Before concluding that Bible chronology is in error, consider that radioactive dating methods have come under sharp criticism by some scientists. A scientific journal reported on studies showing that "dates determined by radioactive decay may be off -- not only by a few years, but by orders of magnitude." It said: "Man, instead of having walked the earth for 3.6 million years, may have been around for only a few thousand.

You can see this on page 96. This one quote, for many years, made me suspicious of such so-called "radioactive dating methods." After I left the faith I actually went down the Phoenix Public Library main branch and found the November 1979 Popular Science article that contains this quote. I've copied the full quote (see below) from Jan Haugland's website where I found a copy. You'll notice of course PopSci calls Gentry's views "odd speculations" and offers this information mostly to show somethings are still unknown. Elsewhere I've read that Gentry is a Seventh Day Adventist and believes in a literal interpretation of Genesis that involves believing the Earth is not much older than 6000 years.

In terms of how the Witnesses used the quote, you don't have to get into the U238 / Pb206 ratios, to see dishonesty. PopSci could just as easily said "elephants" or "rivers" or "polar icecaps" where the word used is "man." But if it had, the quote wouldn't have worked for the Witnesses, because they hold the very odd position of old earth, but young age for the history of mankind.

Not having an explanation for some anomaly does not mean Dr. Gentry has built a case against every other line of evidence. Certainly layers of ice at the poles are also a measure of time and they go far beyond the time frame of the Genesis creation account as well as the global flood of Noah's day. Rates of change in MtDNA is yet another measure of time. A literal understanding of Genesis would compel us to believe all of us have MtDNA from Eve who was the first human female and she lived just over 6000 years ago. His comment about "rates of decay" not varying being an "untestable assumption" means what exactly? Basically it would mean fundemental physics of radiation is not understood. Actually the reliability of the laws of nature is an important reason why we know anything at all.

Cheers,

-Randy

ps: Quote from PopSci...

So, today, everything -- human artifacts, animal remains, ancient rocks -- can be dated fairly accurately. The dates may be off a little, but that's mainly a matter of impurities in the sample or need to refine techniques, say the scientists involved. Yet major mysteries and curious anomalies remain -- the odd speculations advanced by Columbia Union College's Robert Gentry, for instance. Physicist Gentry believes that all of the dates determined by radioactive decay may be off -- not only by a few years, but by orders of magnitude. His theory revolves around "halos," tiny, ringlike discolorations found within coalified wood (wood on its way to becoming coal) and mica, often in the proximity of radioactive uranium or thorium. Some halos can be explained in terms of conventional radioactive decay. Others, known as giant halos, cannot. They're simply too big to be caused by alpha particles thrown off by known isotopes, and they don't fit into any accepted theory. If the theory of radioactive decay is weak in one spot, says Gentry, doubt is cast on whatever answers isotopes give you. Further, when Gentry studies halos in coalified wood, he finds that the uranium/lead ratios are often not at all what they should be. "Since the coalified wood was obtained from deposits supposedly at least tens of millions of years old," he says, "the ratio between uranium-238 and lead-206 should be low." They're not. They're so high, in fact, that "presently accepted ages may be too high by a factor of thousands." And man, instead of having walked the earth for 3.6 million years, may have been around for only a few thousand. "The possibility of reducing the 4.5-billion-year history of earth by a factor of a thousand," he says with some ire, "has not yet been seriously considered." Most scientists simply dismiss the idea. As one physicist told me, "You can believe it or not; I don't." "I realize it's difficult to believe," counters Gentry. "It would invalidate the whole underlying principle of radioactive dating: that the rates of decay are forever unvarying -- an untestable assumption.

8

My Favorite Scriptures When I'm Fearful

by Perry in

isaiah 41:13 esvfor i, the lord your god, hold your right hand; it is i who say to you, fear not, i am the one who helps you.. .

proverbs 3:5-6 esv trust in the lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.

in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths.. .

rawe

Hi Perry,

While I'm an atheist and don't believe the Bible is the Word of God, I continue to read it regularily and some of verses still resonate with me. Here are a few...

Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld. - Hebrews 11:1

Many times you'll see comments disparaging faith. Certainly where 'faith' stands in for belief in the highly unlikely, maybe even harmful, then I too would say that I don't admire such faith. But here faith is connected to "hope" and belief in what is "real." Thus I feel that hope and belief in something that is likely real -- but just out of reach for the moment -- is important. I see it in my work as a software engineer. Much of my work is not creating new software as much as it is hunting down bugs in existing systems. Having a sort of unshakable faith that logic will prevail and given enough time and energy any bug can be teased out into the open and understood and solved.

The senseless one has said in his heart: "There is no Jehovah." They have acted ruinously, they have acted detestably in [their] dealing. There is no one doing good. - Psalms 14:1 (repeated as Psalms 53).

True, this verse calls atheists such as myself 'senseless' (a 'fool' in other translations). But using it as a mere put down misses some important conclusions the next words speak to -- doing good and avoiding acting ruinously and being destestable in our dealings. I have little doubt the Psalmist literally means a real existing Creator God when he says "Jehovah." However, I don't think it is going too far afield to read this verse as "There is no moral authority" and then think about where denial of such would lead. So I see myself, even as an atheist, continuing to "seek Jehovah" (verse 2) in the sense of continuing to look for insight and find the best way forward in terms of how to act towards myself and others.

Will Jehovah be pleased with thousands of rams, with tens of thousands of torrents of oil? Shall I give my firstborn son for my revolt, the fruitage of my belly for the sin of my soul? 8 He has told you, O earthling man, what is good. And what is Jehovah asking back from you but to exercise justice and to love kindness and to be modest in walking with your God - Micah 6:8

Bible writers truly reach wonderful conclusions at certain points! Perhaps even reflecting on what they saw as misguided approaches to worship in others. In this case making great sacrifices. How much better off would the world be if all that we committed to do religious or not was to "exercise justice", "love kindness" and "be modest"?

Of course they are many others -- such as how Proverbs opens up with the focus on gaining wisdom and how important that is, etc.

Cheers,

-Randy

41

If You Were A Bro(tm) Did You Enjoy The Prestiage Of Giving A Talk? Do You Miss It?

by LoisLane looking for Superman in

jw
friends

i was a sister(tm).

i was only allowed to give talks to my householder.. you brother's(tm), all eyes were on you.. what was that like?.

did you enjoy it?.

rawe

Hi LoisLane,

I found giving parts pretty nerve wracking upto the point of starting, but if I was well prepared I felt good about it, especially when it was done! I can still recall vividly some of the parts, especially one funeral talk I gave for a pre-mature baby that died at 9 days.

After leaving the faith I had the truly odd experience of two individuals who left the faith ahead of me tell me that something I had said during The Watchtower review of the circuit assembly made them think that perhaps being a Witness wasn't for them. It went this way. The Watchtower made the point the 'law' was a 'tutor' leading to Christ and in ancient times a 'tutor' was one who lead the student on the path to the teacher. Furthermore, the Jews had failed to appreciate this role of the law, but instead hung on to it.

I thought that was kind of a neat idea. So I said... you know what it is like when your child first goes to school. Afterwards you'll ask your child how their day had gone and make sure not to leave out any details. So they start by telling you they got on the bus, the bus stopped several times to pick up additional students, then finally the bus got to school and the students got off, then the bus went to the bus garage stayed there for the day, then... "Wait... did you not get off the bus?" "Those Jews needed to get off that bus... I concluded." Although I really wasn't trying to make a joke the illustration got a fairly hearty chuckle from the audience. But for my two, now ex-JW friends, it was apparently an epiphany moment when they realized... "I need to get off THIS BUS!"

Cheers,

-Randy

45

If anyone is interested in my 'Coming out' video on Youtube....

by Newly Enlightened in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hx5mghrvbs.

rawe

Hi Kim,

Very much enjoyed your video! I like how you answered the question of "why make a video?" When some Witnesses raise that objection there is this implication that somehow it is wrong for former members to express themselves. How ironic! A faith that teach it's members to invade the private lives of people in a door-to-door fashion should be the very last ones to suggest others should not be allowed to express themselves. I also liked your point about the Reasoning Book. Indeed, I think few leave the organization because they've stumbled on material from sites like jwfacts.com. Rather the story you hear time and again is the very material produced by The Watchtower Society creates concern. Or the actions of leaders or others in the faith. It is only after the internal search fails that folks tend to finally give themselves permission to look outside. It is then that sites like jwfacts.com and others give the seeker the confidence they are not crazy or alone in the doubts about the faith.

I'm sorry to hear local elders decided to slander you and your husband, simply because you've decided you can no longer believe what Witnesses believe. Of course we appreciate this is one clear sign the doctrine of the faith is really not solidly based. Instead fear and intimitation tactics are used in place of direct honesty -- sad really. Many good people are in the faith, alas the leadership does not treat them with honor.

If ever you are in the Phoenix/Chandler, AZ area -- look up our meetup groups (one on meetup.com and the other on groupspaces.com). It is nice to meet with follow ex-Witnesses face to face.

Cheers,

-Randy

304

Musings about different types of atheist!

by Seraphim23 in

jw
friends

a thought that occurs to me is that if one has the belief that all that is real is only explicable in terms of particles and forces, and that nothing exists that is not one of these, then good and bad doesnt exist either, the same would be true for any concept for that matter.

or perhaps it is only true when reduced to the level of matter and forces, but without the moral force, meaning and purpose that such a materialist only description would entail.

after all, if death is forever, which is materialist view, then what does it matter if a seventy or seven year old enters the grave?

rawe

Hi Everyone,

fwiw: I self-identify as an atheist, but...

I believe God does exist, within the minds of believers and often as a shared cultural experience/concept within groups.

I believe it is impossible to prove the non-existence of something, thus I would not claim I can prove God does not exist.

I believe that if God does exist, is a law-of-nature-breaker-miracle-worker and interactive with our world, then knowledge, any knowledge, even in principal, is beyond what we can reach.

As an atheist, I do exactly what I want. Just turns out I want to do things, like work, be loyal, not steal or lie, etc.

Cheers,

-Randy

97

Did Jesus really exist?

by slimboyfat in

i had been wondering over the past few years whether there really was a historical jesus at all, until a few months ago when i read bart ehrman's latest book "did jesus exist?

" initially i was persuaded by his argument that the nt contains multiple sources that testify to jesus' existence.

but more recently i have been reading the christ myth position of richard carrier and his responses to ehrman.

rawe

Hi Ismael,

"Book of Matthew describes a series of very extraordinary events, including massive earthquakes followed by a darkness covering the land."

My view is it is more likely than not that a real person name Jesus was the inspiration for the religion of Christianity. Indeed your argument is a good one against some of the more extraordinary events of the gospels being actual real events that affected a large population. On the other hand the more modest view of the historical Jesus would make for a very small target in terms of history. To wit he was active for only 3 1/2 years and had direct impact/contact with a few fervent believers.

Cheers,

-Randy

97

Did Jesus really exist?

by slimboyfat in

i had been wondering over the past few years whether there really was a historical jesus at all, until a few months ago when i read bart ehrman's latest book "did jesus exist?

" initially i was persuaded by his argument that the nt contains multiple sources that testify to jesus' existence.

but more recently i have been reading the christ myth position of richard carrier and his responses to ehrman.

rawe

Hi Ismael,

"Even more extravagant is how Matthew also describes dead people rising from their graves and roaming the streets."

Unless I'm mistaken the official Witness belief on this event is not that dead people rose in terms of a ressurection. Rather they believe the earthquake caused graves to open and expose the corpse of the dead individual.

Cheers,

-Randy

ps. I found your written English to be excellent.

22

Evolution vs. God

by Perry in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0u3-2cgomq&list=plimax6whtnhc34_zbxbtcgvgvgxk3qzvu.

rawe

Hi Designs,

"Perry rarely responds."

Oh, okay. That will make it difficult to understand how Perry processes the "were you there?" line of argument. I'll assume, he posts this video because he feels it communicates an important message.

Cheers,

-Randy

97

Did Jesus really exist?

by slimboyfat in

i had been wondering over the past few years whether there really was a historical jesus at all, until a few months ago when i read bart ehrman's latest book "did jesus exist?

" initially i was persuaded by his argument that the nt contains multiple sources that testify to jesus' existence.

but more recently i have been reading the christ myth position of richard carrier and his responses to ehrman.

rawe

Hi Slimboyfat,

I am not schooled well enough in the arguments to comment too much one way or the other. However, for the moment, I believe a literal person named Jesus likely existed and was the inspiration for Christianity later filled out and defined by Paul. I think many of the stories about him in the NT go beyond the literally true for religious/prophetic reasons (such as his birth in Bethlehem, move to Egypt, etc).

To me a story of an inspiring rabbi who talked about the Kingdom of God, but then got himself killed by the Romans, is more economical than early Christian using pure invention to create his character. In the modern world we also generally see people follow real-person living Christ-like characters, such as Joseph Smith, Jim Jones, Vernon Howell (David Koresh) and Sun Myung Moon. If we had more examples of Paul-like leaders creating mythical Christ-like characters to follow, I would tilt my views in that direction.

Cheers,

-Randy