Did Jesus really exist?

by slimboyfat 97 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  slimboyfat

  I had been wondering over the past few years whether there really was a historical Jesus at all, until a few months ago when I read Bart Ehrman's latest book "Did Jesus Exist?" Initially I was persuaded by his argument that the NT contains multiple sources that testify to Jesus' existence. But more recently I have been reading the Christ myth position of Richard Carrier and his responses to Ehrman. If you can get past all the personal vitriol between the two scholars, I think it is clear that Carrier makes a good case for the ahistoricity of Jesus that Ehrman has failed to effectively counter. Carrier's scenario that suggests Jesus was initially a divine celestial figure that Christians worshipped and to whom a later historical narrative was appended in the form of the gospels makes a lot of sense.

  Have others here been following the debate? What do you reckon did Jesus exist or not? I am leaning toward the view he probably did not exist.

  http://youtu.be/mwUZOZN-9dc
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  Simon

  Yeah, I don't think he did. So many stories are rehashes of older myths / legends and beliefs or simply rediculous to the point of being like aesops fables.

  One of the books I read focused on the 'jesus' character being an invention of the Essenes. Never heard of them? They were the 3rd sect that didn't like the Pharisees and Sadducees much ... you know, the ones the NT is attacking every other page. Hmmmn

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essenes

  http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/sadducees_pharisees_essenes.html
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  Simon

  Oh, and the other fact was that 'Christianity type teachings' were being taught and practices 200+ years before Christ supposedly invented them. This was discovered in the dead-sea scrolls but suppressed by the Church.

  The other piece of the book explained some of the stories of them leaving one city and then entering another the next day (when they were weeks apart) as making more sense when the cities were the code-names for resistance locations used in the fight against the romans.
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  gymbob

  Yes, but not the biblical Jesus. There was a very charismatic teacher named Jesus (a common name at the time) who moved people to think and feel. He never performed any miracles. His taught kindness and caring for others, and he had a good following.
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  raymond frantz

  If Jesus didn't exist then many other ancient characters didn't EXIST either Plato,Alexander the Great etc. could be a figment of the imagination of their followers after all there a lot less external testimonies for them than there are for Jesus.
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  TheClarinetist

  Here's an interesting question... Did John Frum (messiah of the cargo cults) really exist? We don't know, and that was in the 1940s, whereas Jesus was 2k years ago.

  Personally, I think there was probably a historical "Jesus", but that little or none of the stories about him ever actually happened (especially the supernatural bits)
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  LostGeneration

  If Jesus didn't exist then many other ancient characters didn't EXIST either Plato,Alexander the Great etc. could be a figment of the imagination of their followers after all there a lot less external testimonies for them than there are for Jesus.

  One of the more ignorant statements written here in some time. Do a little research on your examples before you spout off with a false analogy.

  Also, Plato and Alexander aren't threatening to send me to hell if I don't worship them.
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  adamah

  There were at least 24 known sects of Judaism which existed in the 1st century, not even counting those sects which were considered Judeo-Christian. The heightened political turbulence of the period and failure of the Hasmonean Dynasty to develop into long-awaited Messianic age meant many Jews were frustrated and looking for answers, esp. after Roman rulers crushed the independent State of Israel. Into that backdrop were many who were waiting for the end to come, AKA apocalypse, even fleeing to isolated caves to form religious sects (eg Essenes, in Qumran), a location which was used by many such types for many centuries before and after Jesus lived.

  Being that's there no independent contemporary record of Jesus existing, I suspect the odds are great that there was such a person with a group of followers existed but was crushed, just like all the others; hence the story of the group could be the story of MANY similar groups where disenchanted and disinfranchised individuals would give up everything they had to follow a pied-piper (sound familiar?). Fact is, such a person MIGHT have existed, but that is irrelevant: it doesn't prove that he was the Son of God, able to perform miracles, etc. Anyone could claim ANYTHING in writing; doesn't make it true (and there are at least three Isaiahs who wrote the book; writing in someone else's name is hardly a new thing).

  It seems likely some of the details found in the NT narratives sprung up much later to add details that are amalgams of legends, true events, and myths, and a literary genre was born that took off with readers, spurring on "me, too!" books (think of the recent teen Vampire-themed novels that go thru cycles).

  You'd think that even something as simple as determining exactly who discovered the Dead Sea Scrolls circa 1945 would be known and easy to determine, but it's not: there's many versions of that event floating about, where all differ in the exact details. To expect to know with any more certainty of events which occurred 40X further back in the past is more fraught with peril.

  Adam
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  adamah

  RF said:

  If Jesus didn't exist then many other ancient characters didn't EXIST either Plato,Alexander the Great etc. could be a figment of the imagination of their followers after all there a lot less external testimonies for them than there are for Jesus.

  True, but people don't exactly shun their families over whether Plato existed, now do they? They don't form their lifes around the hope of Alexander the Great someday intervening on their behalf, right?

  Adam
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  raymond frantz

  Excuse my ignorance but isn't the character fabrication a recent phenomenon ? In antiquity you either existed or you didn't .People didn't go as far as fabricating character in the hope that it would serve someone's arguments 2000 later .Also , Historical criticism is a recent phenomenon, it began in the 17th century and gained popular recognition in the 19th and 20th centuries (wikipedia quote).Also the old Reasoning in the Scriptures argument think is still valid :Why would the first 3 century Christians put them selves through persecution and violent death for a fabricated character?