Posts by rawe

97

First post

by thedog1 in

jw
friends

this is a very strange thing for me to do.

i have been an active witness for over 25 years.

i currently serve as an elder and i conduct the watchtower study.

I recall a conversation I had with one brother[1] about attending his first JW wedding. He was afraid that he would be fearful to get up and dance because at wordly weddings he needed a drink or two to loosen up. But he was surprised how much he enjoyed a dry wedding. Because many of the normal holidays are not part of the faith, it seems weddings in particular are good social time for Witnesses. It is not just that many JWs are good, moral, honest and sincere folks, in some cases, such as my own, Witnesses really did many kind things for me. Growing up on welfare with DF'd parents (my father nonetheless directed me to the Witness faith) meant I had to rely on Witnesses for many basic things, like rides to the meetings. I also often was given meeting clothes, one time even taken to Sears and bought a new suit, top to bottom -- even new shoes, so I would not feel out of place at the covention that week-end. I was even taken in for several months by a Witness family when I had no other place to live.

Perhaps others have had a different experience upon leaving, but for me, it meant an instant shrinking of a circle of friends to almost no one. The first trip we made back to Canada brought this point home. We had to leave our van out in long term parking at the Phoenix airport, because our normal close JW friends that would pick us up, of course wouldn't be there. And... I'll even add, gaining friends on the outside hasn't been that easy. But we've got a few now and each one is a treasure. We of course, now have a easy and more authentic relationship with immediate neighbors, since we've stopped looking for opportunities to 'witness', but instead really listen to what interests them.

Unfortunately, one can reach a moral impasse. Ultimately, to be a faithful and loyal member, entails upholding doctrine and policy as set out by the Governing Body. It also means accepting and odd mix of doctrine, some of which one might completely agree with, such as "no hell fire", "no trinity", to others aspects such as "no beards" one senses is not really Biblical. Or even central ideas like we're living in the last days, Jehovah is blessing his people, yet, one of the "six signs", a reduction in the number of partakers, is silently discarded, when it conflicts with "new light."

Take care,

-Randy

[1] To use a JW terms, because they are familiar.

288

Is it just me or has this site become a Believer/Atheist warzone?

by BU2B in

jw
friends

i enjoy the odd thread about evoloution vs creation, etc but lately it seems that a large percentage of threads here devolve into fighting between atheists and theists and distract from what most of us here see eye to eye on, the wt and related things.

i wish things could be more civil here and fr people to realize that people will never see eye to eye on the topic.

it gets so tiring to see the contstant bickring and fighting on those threads.. they seem to go on page after page but very little of substance is discussed seeing as the existence or non existence of a god can be proven by anyone.

rawe

Hi BU2B,

I enjoy these sort of threads, both as a reader and responder. That likely relates to this being a main concern while I was in the faith and one of the major reasons why I left. For one reason or another, some of the more negative things about the faith that others experienced I did not. I was even greatful that in the 80s I refused a blood transfusion at the time blood in Canada was not being tested for HIV.

In terms of how a doubting Witness might feel, that's a tough one. On the one hand, I think most of us appreciate just how helpful it has been to meet with folks who blazed the trail ahead of us and faced the same problems, etc. Even though we may have made good friends outside the faith, it does seem an Ex-JW is in a particular good position to relate to us in ways others cannot.

But... the point in leaving is about embracing the freedom to explore who we really are, what we believe and the reasons for such. Because of that, inevitably differences of opinion will come up. That was there at the Kingdom Hall as well, but since the appearance of unity was held to be so important, we tended to bury any differences, especially if they touched on doubts about direction or doctrine received from the leadership. Out here, no such constraint is in place. An atheist, can speak freely about their beliefs. A Christian can share the true meaning of following Christ and how JWs miss the boat on that one.

Good reminder tho! It seems to me, there is always an opportunity to discuss views without getting too much into attack mode.

Cheers,

-Randy

111

" the universe made itself " but---

by prologos in

watching the fertilization of an ovum and subsequent cell division it appears that the new being is making itself.

parents were involved, unskilled labor, time, energy.

no thing has ever been observed to make itself, to my knowledge.

rawe

Hi Prologos,

"Many authors and theoriticians, in one way or another realize that to explain the start of the material universe there has to be a pre-condition, energy, potential, time even, that became focussed in this particularly glorious way."

I once saw a Youtube video wherein a number of physics students are asked if they believe there was something before the Big Bang event. My recall is the vast majority raised their hands. And both Carl Sagan and Roger Penrose theorize about the universe going through cycles. In this way we can escape being trapped in the time-space continium of the current universe. I think Penrose may be on to something and I don't feel the slightest bit qualified to cast doubt on his views. Same with Sagan. However, I do think we need to be careful with all this, otherwise we'll wind up discarding the insights of Einstein. As you probably know, it was Albert Einstein who connected time with matter. The idea that a clock outside the universe beats independent of gravity and matter is just not a real thing.

In practical ways we know Einstein must have been right, since GPS satellites, have their clocks set purposefully slowed down while they are built here on Earth, so when they are flying at high speed in orbit, their time will be "right."

When one of Einstein's friends died, he wrote a letter to his widow, in it he called "time" a "persistent illusion." From the best I can tell, he meant that since time is merely an attribute of space and matter, it seems incorrect that we should measure our lives as lengths of time. He may have also been hinting at a universal unfairness that such an un-reality as 'time' should be empowered to take our friends away. Of course, I'm sure he didn't really mean that time doesn't exist, just that it doesn't exist independet of the universe.

So.. here we are... to talk about origin of something we have to start with imagining the subject matter does not exist then in a step-by-step process wherein it comes into existence. None of us have observed a planet in our solar system forming. But we observe they all orbit in the same direction and on the same plane, so we conclude clouds of dust in orbit must have been pulled together to form planets. Likewise with life. We close our eyes and imagine planet earth as completely sterile, not a spec of life to be found. From there we imagine pre-life chemistry that could have existed and forms of energy that could have created a pathway towards the first self-replicating system.

But... in terms of the universe, we close our eyes and imagine it does not exist. Now what? We can't say, "before" or "pre", because that relates to time and if time exists, then so does the universe so we haven't gone back far enough. We can't say, "matter-of-this-or-that-sort" because if such matter exists, so does the universe. It is a fundemental black box we just can't seem to pry open.

But, some insist hidden in the black box is God. If such were just a simple philosophical item to be discussed I see little harm in that. But, some of those who insist this is true, go on to suggest this God has feelings and he can be please or displeased with us, therefore we should remove the foreskin of penis and donate 10% of our income to the Church.

Cheers,

-Randy

111

" the universe made itself " but---

by prologos in

watching the fertilization of an ovum and subsequent cell division it appears that the new being is making itself.

parents were involved, unskilled labor, time, energy.

no thing has ever been observed to make itself, to my knowledge.

rawe

Hi Everyone,

In the universe of "origin of..." questions the universe itself is unique. A couple words that appear in prologos posts above is 'pre' and 'thing' (or 'stuff'). We say the universe came from 'nothing' not to be flipped, but to express this issue. All that relates to time (before, pre, now, later, etc) and material (stuff, thing, etc) is a result of the universe existing.

As to the origin of the universe it appears we can only be certain of two things, that it did happen and it was about 13.7 billion years ago. As to the origin of life, it of course must have happened, since life exists, but in this case we can talk about reasonable pre-conditions that naturally resulted in the first living thing.

The problem with God is the speculation is unconstrained. The observed expansion of the universe implies that it had a beginning. Computer models of how the universe expanded factor in known things like the four fundemental forces. In fact all of science works that way. But God can do anything, be anything, interact without normal means of detection and on and on.

That is a different kind of speculation than, say for incidence, the speculations of Roger Penrose in Cycles of Time, where he gets around the 'before' problem by looking forward in time to a vastly expanded universe that grows so big that it loses a grasp of time and space and thus sets up the next pop, or cycle, that looks for the world like a big bang event. Key to this speculation is massive black holes that echo across this boundary. This, if I have understood Penrose well enough (and I sure may not have), is key to what makes is speculation potentially observable.

Cheers,

-Randy

111

" the universe made itself " but---

by prologos in

watching the fertilization of an ovum and subsequent cell division it appears that the new being is making itself.

parents were involved, unskilled labor, time, energy.

no thing has ever been observed to make itself, to my knowledge.

rawe

Hi KateWild,

"That is exactly why many of us still believe in God. Because each time we question, why or how? The answers just become increasingly complex."

As an atheist, I believe God exists, but only within the mind of the believer. On the other hand, to believe God exists, is undetectable by normal means of measurement, and yet proactively interacts with our world to work out his purpose... actually means, nothing can be known, even in principal. In other words, we may think the sky is blue, but it could just be God fooling us, if such satisifies his purpose.

God is also, as a concept, the opposite of what we've discovered so far. That is physical processes, in particular biological evolution, have built up complexity over time. There is no indication of super-complexity (i.e. God) being at the start point.

Cheers,

-Randy

111

" the universe made itself " but---

by prologos in

watching the fertilization of an ovum and subsequent cell division it appears that the new being is making itself.

parents were involved, unskilled labor, time, energy.

no thing has ever been observed to make itself, to my knowledge.

rawe

Hi KateWild,

"I actually think God evolved gradually over billions of years before he was evolved enough to create the universe and everything in it. Kate xx"

Origin of the universe is complicated by the fact that time itself is a product of this event. Thus from inside the universe it makes no sense to talk about anything "before."

Cheers,

-Randy

111

" the universe made itself " but---

by prologos in

watching the fertilization of an ovum and subsequent cell division it appears that the new being is making itself.

parents were involved, unskilled labor, time, energy.

no thing has ever been observed to make itself, to my knowledge.

rawe

Hi Prologos,

"Watching the fertilization of an ovum and subsequent cell division it appears that the new being is making itself. but: parents were involved, unskilled labor, time, energy. No THING has ever been observed to make itself, to my knowledge."

These issues are "origin of..." questions. One of the mistakes we made as Witnesses (under the influence of the publications of course) was intermixing origin of questions. Making the assumption that understanding the origin of one thing can be easily transferred to an understanding of the origin of something completely different.

Biological reproduction and subsequent evolution of living things is not the same as other origin of quetions.

Not the same as origin of the first cell.

Not the same as origin of planets.

Not the same as origin of stars, galaxies and of course the universe itself.

The worse case of these intermixing is confusing the origin of human output like computers, cameras, cars, etc, with the output of biological processes such as living things.

And, if one is unable to answer an origin of question, this not knowing, should never be confused with knowing. We just don't know might be the answer for the moment. Naturally the unknown draws us in an fuels our imagination, and it may be exceedingly difficult to be content with our ignorance, but it is what is.

Cheers,

-Randy

99

Survey: Who Here Believe In God/The Bible? Who Are Not Sure? Who Do Not Believe?

by minimus in

jw
friends

i think there are many that still want to believe in a god but just aren't sure.. personally, do you believe in a god?.

are you a "spiritual" person?.

rawe

Hi Minimus,

"Personally, do YOU believe in a God?"

No

"Are you a "spiritual" person?"

I like reading the Bible, discussing religion and philosophy. Lately I've been attending a Unitarian Univeralist Congregation. So if that counts, then I am.

Cheers,

-Randy

97

First post

by thedog1 in

jw
friends

this is a very strange thing for me to do.

i have been an active witness for over 25 years.

i currently serve as an elder and i conduct the watchtower study.

rawe

Hi Thedog1,

"We are an English group sponsored by a local congregation which is not English speaking. . . .So I am the kingpin in the English group. . .everything. . .depends on me. Not complicated at all then if one is having doubts, eh?"

I can see what you mean. If you moved to serve where the need is great, can you make plans to return home? That might help. In the 1960s and 70s many in Western Canada moved to the province of Quebec to serve there, which of course included learning French. In a meeting setting the stories of "Jehovah blessing the work of these 'original pioneers'" would often be told. Yet, in a few cases, where I was able to talk more one-on-one with those who did this, you got a far different picture. Having an unshakable faith that you're doing Jehovah's will no doubt help one endure some of the challenges. Yet, as Jonh Cedars, of jwsurvey.org related in his life story, moving to an area where English was not spoken actually caused him to unplug from the constant stream of information one gets from the publications and meeting attendance.

In Quesnel, BC, Canada where I am originally from, a family moved to the Dominican Republic. The family spent one year there, then moved back. Again I got the feeling, although nothing too negative was ever said, that there were difficulties. Shortly after this, we made plans to move to Phoenix, AZ. But I made it clear to my friends, we were moving simply to give our girls a chance to see a wider world. We were Witnesses in Quesnel and we would be Witnesses in Phoenix. As things turned out we stayed and even eventually became USA citizens.

Ultimately though, the world of the Witnesses will continue on regardless of our level of involvement. And being part of something we don't fully believe is like trying to serve two masters. It just doesn't work, as even Jesus said.

Do take care. I hope you're able to find a resolution that works the best for you, knowing adjusting how we relate to this faith, is always a big change.

-Randy

97

First post

by thedog1 in

jw
friends

this is a very strange thing for me to do.

i have been an active witness for over 25 years.

i currently serve as an elder and i conduct the watchtower study.

rawe

Hi Thedog1,

I was baptized at age 16 in 1981 and left the faith in 2007 after a life-time of involvement. Although I did serve as an MS and later an elder, conducting the Watchtower study was only something I did twice. Once at the congregation and once as part of a circuit assembly. Living with concerns and doubts can be very difficult. After book study one evening I revealed more about my doubts than I should have to a young couple. After that I realized that I had to resign as an elder, which I did. Although I lost all my privledges, including being on the TMS and even saying public prayer, in general I felt the elders were kind and fairly considerate. Likely this had much to do with how non-confrontational I was about the issue, taking all of the blame for my doubts upon myself. This was in 2005.

For what it is worth here are few thoughts, considering of course, I do not know your circumstances. First, unless something is pressing the issue, there is usually time to think through the issues and do research. If you're uncomfortable with the idea of directly reading material critical of the Witness faith, I suggest either reading the Bible or a portion of it, outside of the TMS schedule. Doing this can really help one see the over all gist of what the various authors really wanted to communicate. Although it seems that "deep study" would imply diving into each verse and tearing it apart, there is much to be gained by reading the accounts at a quicker pace.

Another suggestion is to read an older publication. Reading Russell's Divine Plan of the Ages can really give one a sense of where the faith once was and how it developed into what we see today. Often through eBay or Amazon one can find copies of this book at a reasonable price.

As you know the organization stesses loyalty towards itself. Thus, most attempts to find a real true friend you can confide in, in regards to doubts, is near impossible. Even if the individual wants to be a friend, all we'll wind up doing is likely putting a burden on them. Although the faith presents itself as comitted to Bible truth, at the end of the day, it is run more like a business. Thus it tends to reward good managers, those who know the rules and are effective at organizing others around them and accomplishing things that fit the primary goal of the business. I eventually likened the organization to an out of control beast in the shape of printing presses -- a few fed blank rolls of paper in one end -- and the many had to run printed results out to the public. In many different ways we all sensed not all was right, but none of us knew had to make it stop.

For a short while, another way to cope is to rationalize your situation. Over the long haul I firmly believe this doesn't work and in my own case caused me to reach a breaking point, wherein I was out in service in the morning and left the faith that afternoon. But... while you're doing research and considering more deeply what you believe and where you want your life course to take you, rationalize... the faith is defined mostly by the Governing Body. It is those men who decide the format of meetings, what is published, etc. So while I was part of it, I always felt it wasn't my place to try and change it, but rather go along with the program. For me this relieved much of the stress and gave me a bit of room to breath -- eventually of course, I felt I had to leave.

Next, I think it is entirely reasonable to ask to be relieved of some of the burden of being an elder. This does not have to mean anything more than explaining that you're under some mental stess and need time to focus on yourself, your relationship with Jehovah and your family. I know in one case, an elder presented this case to the body -- he wanted to resign. We actually asked him to remain and not be deleted, but otherwise promised him that he would not have any assignments for awhile.

Just so you know. My doubts were centered around science and the theory of evolution in particular. My initial doubts about the existence of God eventually blossomed into accepting the fact that I was an atheist. Although some fellow atheists find it odd, I continue to be a Bible reader.

Take care,

-Randy