Posts by rawe

34

thedog1 said "I just listened to your JC hearing for re-instatement"

by KateWild in

thedog1 said.............. hi sam.

i just listened to your jc hearing for re-instatement.

without knowing the details of what happened it is difficult to make a comment on it but here goes.

rawe

Hi Everyone,

I should add the deviant sexual behaviour would need to be something that would generally fall below community standards, even for "non-Christians" or "nations" as Paul says - 1 Cor 5:1.

Cheers,

-Randy

34

thedog1 said "I just listened to your JC hearing for re-instatement"

by KateWild in

thedog1 said.............. hi sam.

i just listened to your jc hearing for re-instatement.

without knowing the details of what happened it is difficult to make a comment on it but here goes.

rawe

Hi Thedog1,

"This seems to me to be a direction from Paul rather than simply a suggestion. How should we apply this today?"

To follow the 1 Cor 5 & 2 Cor 2 model closely it would need to work like this: A prominent leader within the Christian community would author a public letter to a congregation wherein man involved in deviant sexual behaviour would be called out for removal. Among Jehovah's Witnesses, this would be the equivalent of a Governing Body member or other individual who authors published material. In a follow up, again the prominent leader would publically say something like this "This rebuke given by the majority is sufficent for such a man" (2 Cor 2:6).

Although, our training as elders schools us on how procedures work within the Witness faith, that is where it goes off into the weeds. There is just no clear parallel between NT writings of Paul and how the quasi-judicial process of Jehovah's Witnesses works. Although there is talk of a Bible trained conscience trained to distinguish between right and wrong (Heb 5:14) in reality individual members are asked to provide the rebuke by relying implicitly on the conscience of the elders involved, wherein even asking for the facts of a case is forbidden.

Cheers,

-Randy

11

Interview with an Apostate: rawe (Randy)

by rawe in

tell us a little about yourself and your family.. my name is randy, i live in chandler, az with my wife and our daughters.

my oldest is married and has a son, making us grandparents.

my second still lives at home with us, but recently got engaged, so will be leaving the nest soon.

rawe

Hi OnedayillBeFree,

Agreed!

Hi Cofty,

I was surprised to see you left the Witnesses to join another Christian group, and only became an atheist after further processing more evidence.

Hi DesirousOfChange,

The faith was helpful during my younger years. Since my home life was so disfunctional it wouldn't have taken much for it to be helpful. In any regards, being a 'fatherless boy' in the congregation seems to have drawn a lot of kindness my way. My mistake was assuming that because this was the case for me it would also be true for my children -- completely wrong on that point! The PO who wanted to act against my daughter, has a daughter of his own just a bit older. I never met her, but apparently, after pioneering she up and left and was DF'd. I have always had a bit of a feeling that his view of my daughter and her "rebel ways" (not really, but you know...) was a reflection of his own circumstances.

Whereas I have a wonderful relationship with my daughter, her husband and our first grandson, that PO is still shunning his daughter all these years later.

But, yes, despite how smart I thought I was, even being an admitted (to the elders) doubter of God's existence and believer in the theory of evolution yet still having the bookstudy in my home -- it took being spit in the eye to wake me up!

Cheers everyone,

-Randy

12

Question for exjws who are now atheist..

by EndofMysteries in

this question is for athiests who had been jw's, and when leaving, had to pretty much start fresh (if most of your association had been jw's).. to help you better answer the question, here is first the reason i am asking it.

my whole life and assocation were jw's only.

when i left, it was at first being pretty isolated while making new friends/etc from scratch.

rawe

Hi EndOfMysteries,

"My question is to those of you who are athiest who lost your whole community/etc, don't tell me what your options are, but tell me if you have actually found and joined some type of similar community and what is it like."

The first group we joined after leaving, was an Ex-JW meetup group in West Phoenix. This was six months after leaving -- very helpful. And they did not mind that I was an atheist. Another Ex-JW group in the East Valley, I had to drop from because they announced that their purpose was to bring Ex-JWs to Jesus.

I joined the Phoenix Atheist Meetup Group (PAMG) and have attended a few of their events. Enjoyed it, but didn't make a real connection. Recently I have started going to the Unitarian Universalist Congregation (they accept non-believers). Have been to their services only 3 times, so we'll see -- so far so good.

Cheers,

-Randy

11

Interview with an Apostate: rawe (Randy)

by rawe in

tell us a little about yourself and your family.. my name is randy, i live in chandler, az with my wife and our daughters.

my oldest is married and has a son, making us grandparents.

my second still lives at home with us, but recently got engaged, so will be leaving the nest soon.

rawe

Hi Everyone,

Tell us a little about yourself and your family.

My name is Randy, I live in Chandler, AZ with my wife and our daughters. My oldest is married and has a son, making us grandparents. My second still lives at home with us, but recently got engaged, so will be leaving the nest soon. My third is in college in Santa Fe, New Mexico, at a Great Books college. Our four is 10 and always checks out 10 books when we make our trek to the library and scatters more flour on the counter and floor than in the bowl on bread making day with dad. I work as a software engineer. Life is good!

Were you a born in or a convert?

Born-in. My parents were disfellowshipped when I was four. My dad was an alcoholic, and as a result our family life was filled with smoke, living on welfare, strange people from the bar, and an incredible message of paradise earth. My mom never talked about matters of faith, but my dad always did. When he got inspired he would study chapter 1 of the Truth book with us. We must have done that about 1/2 dozen times. In honor of this, when he died in 1991 at 76, both my brother and I agreed we should have Rev 21:3, 4 as quoted on the Truth book on his headstone. Of my dad's four children, I was the youngest and only one to take up the faith.

Are your parents / family JWs?

My mom was reinstated after 10 years and my father after 20 years. After my dad died, my mom, stopped going to meetings. Most of my extended family on both my mom and dad's side are Witnesses.

How many generations have been JWs?

I was 3rd, with grandparents on both sides Witnesses from the 1940s and 1920s.

Did you hold any position in the WTS? (MS, Elder etc...)

I served as MS and later an Elder. I never pioneered, although we had a goal as a family to Aux Pio every summer, which we did most summers.

Did you *really* believe in the bible, in spirits (angels, demons)?

I don't believe the Bible is the word of God, or that our world is influenced by spirits, angles or demons. I continue to read and sometimes quote from the Bible. I find it interesting.

Did you get baptised? When and why?

Yes, in 1981 at age 16. I believed Jehovah's Witnesses were the only true religion on earth.

What was the initial trigger that made you start questioning things?

An interest in science has been with me all my life. I questioned the individual who study with me at 16 about the theory of evolution. I did not find his glib dismissal of a stick, string and straw blowing around would never form a broom very convincing. Meeting an elder who had a more nuanced view convinced me to shove this question asside. Watchtower articles in the 1990s regarding the "marriage of the lamb" and the redefinition of "this generation" in 1995, changed my views slightly. I began to rationalize that the organization was more human than divine and Jehovah basically allowed it to drift along on these issues.

Where did you find information? Internet sites? Books?

When that same elder who was more nuanced, left the faith, I bought him the book Darwin's Black Box. This was the first book on the theory of evolution I read outside of WT publications. He read it and then lent me, Finding Darwin's God. After reading this book I knew, with little doubt, that I was an atheist. Shortly after this I resigned as an elder. I did not read many critical websites while I was in the faith. Instead I focused on reading exit stories of Ex-Mormons. I also posted on A.R.M. Usenet that discussed the LDS faith. After I resigned I would allow myself a bit more latitude and did visit jwfacts.com and wikipedia.org.

How difficult or painful was the process of leaving?

Both.

Was it a big dramatic exit or a careful quiet fade?

Dramatic! I was out in service in the morning and left that afternoon. This was triggered by the PO (aka COBE) informing me my daughter would be the subject of an upcoming 'marking' talk. I even had to call the elders to tell them my home would no longer be available for book study and I would not be at the special assembly day the next day, so I would not be able to help look after the contribution boxes. The next week-end news had spread and a good friend at the hall arranged for an intervention of sorts. We wound up with about 20 from the hall at our house, with pizza, pie and ice-cream in hand.

Did you convince anyone else to leave with you?

I have never tried to directly convince anyone. However, I was extremely happy when my wife and three daughters joined me in leaving. My oldest continue to go for about six months, then left too. So very grateful, we are out as a family.

How were your family relations affected by your decision?

Initial shock all around. Even my non-JW family called in shock that I was an atheist, with my brother telling me he believed in God. Shunning we experience from a few Witnesses on my wife's side of the family is the most painful. We had warm and close relationships before, that they no doubt assume I have destroyed due to my choice to leave and convince their sister too as well.

Were you or are you still being shunned by those who didn't leave?

See prior question.

How long have you now been out?

Left in 2007.

Was there anything you looked forward to doing when you left?

No much really. In fact I did not celebrate any of the holidays until Christmas of 2009.

What are you most proud of achieving since you left?

Having a good life, keeping up with my running (two 1/2 marathons so far!), helping out where I can in the Ex-JW community.

Is there anything you miss about life in the congregation?

I do. I enjoyed the after-the-meeting visit time with older ones.

Red pill or blue pill? Do you regret waking up to reality at all?

Red. No regret. Life is good.

Did you become an atheist or transfer your faith elsewhere?

I'm an atheist. Recently I started attending Sunday services at the Unitarian Universalist Congregation.

How do you now feel about religion in general?

Being religious seems to be the natural state of existence for humans. May in some way have contributed to our survival. Thus evolution may have selected for religiousity -- but I'm not sure on this point.

Do you feel any guilt celebrating xmas or birthdays or doing any other JW "no-no"s?

No.

Have you attended any face-to-face meetups of ex-JWs?

I'm the organizer of the Ex-JW meetup in Chandler, AZ.

Describe your circle of friends - mostly other ex-JWs or regular people?

A mix of Ex-JWs, co-workers and in-laws.

Do you tell people about your JW past?

Sure, probably too much.

Do you feel animosity or pity toward current JWs?

I don't think I would use either word. It would depend on how the individual Witness relates to their faith.

How do you respond to witnesses when they call at your door?

None have, but if they did, I would invite them in for a chat.

Storm the barricades or tend to the wounded? (do you favor activism or support)

I favor support, but appreciate why some might tend towards activism.

What do you think is the most effective approach to reaching people still in?

Have them read The Watchtower ;-)... just kidding... but only sort of... In my experience, resources such as this site and jwfacts.com, wikipedia.org really help those who are in the process of leaving, but most trigger events happen from internal things (doctrinal changes, mistreatement, etc).

Do you think the WTS can or should be destroyed, will continue on as-is or grow / change?

Should the leadership dissolve the corporation? -- yes. If this faith does any good, it is outweighed considerably by the harm it has brought on it's member. Should an outside source destroy it? -- no. Freedom of religion is important for all of us, despite faiths like this existing. The latest change is moving away from "Bible student" focus and from traditional to online media. Most of the evangelizing is now an in-group ritual than anything that is effective at making converts. But millions of members is a big ship that will likely continue to sail for the foreseeable future.

How has your life been impacted by your JW past?

Sure, both for good and not-so. Top of the "good" list is meeting my wife!

Are there things in your life you blame the WTS for?

No, other than the shunning.

JW upbringing - a protection or a curse?

A curse. Telling children their actions can please or displease Jehovah God, who is ready and willing to destroy them, I believe is harmful. Likewise, obsessive and unhealthy views of human sexuality, including condeming homosexuality and masterbation has no doubt harmed many a child.

How do you fill your time now it's not filled with meetings and field service?

Working and family life.

Do you still have an interest in JW beliefs and doctrines?

Somewhat, but getting less over time.

How much of your time is still spent on JW related matters?

A few hours a week online. One day per month at our meetup.

What do you think of the ex-JW community?

Been very helpful to me. Made some great friends, both in-person and online.

Do you see yourself still being associated with the ex-JW community in 5 or 10 years time?

Likely it will get less over time.

Do you fear the future?

No.

What advice would you give to anyone starting the journey of leaving the WTS?

Research your feelings from reliable sources, trust yourself and your instincts. At least for the moment, set aside thought stoppers, including scriptures such as Prov 3:5 (do not lean upon your own understanding) and James 1:6 (do not doubt). Realize the 'set aside' doesn't mean disregard forever, once you're research is nearing completion, you can get back to these.

What would you change in your life if you could go back and talk to yourself?

I find this questions generate an odd feeling within me. I love so much about my life can hardly imagine just how fortunate in so many ways I have been from family, to career, that I fear if I did change something I would jinx what I have now.

Do you have any regrets about life since you left?

No.

Can we read your life-story anywhere? (links to online or books)

The Ex-Jehovah's Witness Forum and Recovery Site on yuku.com has my life story. Search for "Who the heck is Rawe?"

Want to share your own story? Please use the Interview with an Apostate: Template and post it in the Personal Experiences & Reunions section with the title "Interview with an Apostate: [your name or alias]"

89

Boeing 747s and Other Misunderstandings about Evolution

by cofty in

perhaps the most common misunderstanding that prevents people from grasping evolution is complexity.. we see it almost daily on the forum where people mention dna or the eye or any of a multititude of examples and ask how it could have arose "by blind chance"?.

whenever you see a reference to chance and complexity it is obvious the person hasn't yet grasped the basics of the theory.

chance is only one part of the process.

rawe

Hi Sam,

"If I did become an atheist, it would be becuase there is too much suffering."

That dogs get, suffer then die from cancer in the same way as humans does not square with explanation of why-death at Romans 5:12.

Cheers,

-Randy

89

Boeing 747s and Other Misunderstandings about Evolution

by cofty in

perhaps the most common misunderstanding that prevents people from grasping evolution is complexity.. we see it almost daily on the forum where people mention dna or the eye or any of a multititude of examples and ask how it could have arose "by blind chance"?.

whenever you see a reference to chance and complexity it is obvious the person hasn't yet grasped the basics of the theory.

chance is only one part of the process.

rawe

Hi Sam,

"Albert Einstein, stated that the orderly universe was complex and this order had to be divine."

Pinning down Einstein's views on the subject of God can be challenge. As a young child he apparently spent a year or two practicing Orthodox Judiasm. In his later life, when directly questioned on the subject he replied, "I believe in Spinoza's God[1], who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a God who concerns Himself with the fate and the doings of mankind..."

In the post-9/11 world of New Atheism, I do think there is a difference in how non-believers engage and identify themselves. In 1950s America being outspoken and bullish on Atheism would be more rare, even in academic circles. I'm not suggesting Einstein would be less than candid on the subject, but just that in general people today speak of their non-belief differently than they did 60 years ago.

In any regards, Einstein was a physicist not an evolutionary biologist. It is evolutionary biologists such as Richard Dawkins that are in effect told, their body of scientific knowledge should be excluded from the class room because it is in direct conflict with the creation story in Genesis. I think that makes a difference too. For Einstein his concern was the conclusions of quantum physics, which seemed to suggest chaos and lack of order. He worked right to the very end of his life on unified field theory, that he was sure could unite the micro and macro worlds without the need to invoke uncertainity of QP.

Cheers,

-Randy

[1] As per the Wikipedia on Baruch Spinoza (1632 - 1677): "Spinoza denies the immortality of the soul; strongly rejects the notion of a providential God—the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; and claims that the Law was neither literally given by God nor any longer binding on Jews."

288

Is it just me or has this site become a Believer/Atheist warzone?

by BU2B in

jw
friends

i enjoy the odd thread about evoloution vs creation, etc but lately it seems that a large percentage of threads here devolve into fighting between atheists and theists and distract from what most of us here see eye to eye on, the wt and related things.

i wish things could be more civil here and fr people to realize that people will never see eye to eye on the topic.

it gets so tiring to see the contstant bickring and fighting on those threads.. they seem to go on page after page but very little of substance is discussed seeing as the existence or non existence of a god can be proven by anyone.

rawe

Hi Mrhhome,

"We are in agreement rawe. What is the difference between philosophy and religion?"

Philosophy is literally "love(philo) of wisdom(sophy)", whereas religion typically involves defined ritual connected to worship. In re-reading my post, I'm not sure if I should have used the word philosophy there. I was expanding on Cofty's "not even wrong" three-word post. A tentative hypothesis is a useful scientific tool, but only if it can be proved wrong. There must be some way to kill the hypothesis. Thus, you'll sometimes see the comment that an idea is "not even wrong" in the sense there is no way to kill the hypothesis. I'll let Cofty correct me here if he was thinking about something else.

Ideas about God often fall into the category of "not even wrong." For example, we can measure things like how many people believe in the God of the Bible. A simple well constructed survey could answer that question. But is there a way to answer the question of what sex is God? If we assume he is male, can we answer the question of does he have a penis and what is it used for? Attempts to answer such questions will wind up disconnected from anything measurable in the real world. If we hypothesize God has a penis and thus he is male, how exactly could we construct a test to show such is wrong -- i.e. kill the hypothesis?

In any regards, the study of the nature of knowledge, or philosophy, has many legitimate pursuits and I don't mean to say such is unscientific.

Cheers,

-Randy

89

Boeing 747s and Other Misunderstandings about Evolution

by cofty in

perhaps the most common misunderstanding that prevents people from grasping evolution is complexity.. we see it almost daily on the forum where people mention dna or the eye or any of a multititude of examples and ask how it could have arose "by blind chance"?.

whenever you see a reference to chance and complexity it is obvious the person hasn't yet grasped the basics of the theory.

chance is only one part of the process.

rawe

Hi Cofty,

"I remember reading bits of "The Blind Watchmaker" in the public library when I was a JW. I quickly realised that this very point demolished every argument I had ever used against evolution. I was shocked and quickly put the book back on the shelf."

Too funny! I did something similar, once pulling an encyclopedia volume out and reading about evolution as a JW -- it made me feel very uncomfortable. Here's to not being afraid anymore!

Cheers,

-Randy

288

Is it just me or has this site become a Believer/Atheist warzone?

by BU2B in

jw
friends

i enjoy the odd thread about evoloution vs creation, etc but lately it seems that a large percentage of threads here devolve into fighting between atheists and theists and distract from what most of us here see eye to eye on, the wt and related things.

i wish things could be more civil here and fr people to realize that people will never see eye to eye on the topic.

it gets so tiring to see the contstant bickring and fighting on those threads.. they seem to go on page after page but very little of substance is discussed seeing as the existence or non existence of a god can be proven by anyone.

rawe

Hi Mrhhome,

"There exist a great deal which will never be explained by science given its finite nature. What are we supposed to do with it? Ignore it? Deny its existence?"

Science is rooted in materialism, the "I believe what I can measure" sort. You are very right, this does put limits on what we can know and discover. What is routinely done with the unknown is putting forward a hypothesis, then seeking ways to easily kill the hypothesis. The Higgs Boson had to wait in the hypothesis state for years until a big enough instrument could be built to directly test for its existence.

If of course a hypothesis is so unbounded to anything in nature it is not even possible to define how it could be killed off as wrong, then such ideas will need to live in the realm of philosophy.

Cheers,

-Randy