Posts by rawe

139

Ever consider joining The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

by rawe in

has anyone here left jehovah's witnesses to join the churuch of jesus christ of latter-day saints?

what was your motivation for doing so and how has it worked out?.

if you haven't joined the lds or considered it, as an ex-jw, what is your general view of the lds faith?.

rawe

Hi Cold Steel,

The two faiths are of course different. Shunning for example is a official practice among Jehovah's Witnesses, whereas it would be more of cultural expression that follows what the LDS faith teaches about former members. Nonetheless, a current JW who is in the initial stages of doubt, will find the LDS faith a close proxy of his own and visa-versa.

The Youtube video posted on this thread showed similarities, such as the use of language like "increasing light" employed as a thought stopper. The two faiths seek to control members access to information criticial of the faith, suggesting it is like "pornography." I was fairly certain this was the case, but of course only knew the JW side, I thus had to ask on the exmormonforums.com.

Here is the post where I thank the user Abinadi for his reference. It has the respective quotes from the two faiths.

Thanks, that is exactly what I was looking for.....

Well, if we would act so decisively to protect our children from exposure to pornography, should we not expect that our loving heavenly Father would similarly warn us and protect us from spiritual fornication, including apostasy? He says, Keep away from it! (The Watchtower March 15, 1986 p 10-15).

Elder Packer said, “They leave the Church but they can’t leave it alone” (Utah State University baccalaureate address). They publish theological pornography that is damaging to the spirit. None of it is worth casting an eye upon. Do not read the anti-Mormon materials. (Vaughn J. Featherstone, member of the First Quorum of the Seventy)

Cheers,

-Randy

ps. The greater truth to the comment "they can't leave it alone", is the leadership of these respective faiths, don't "leave alone" those who wish a graceful exit. Name removal is a constant forum topic on Ex-Mormon forums and JWs often act against those who have left. Furthermore, who are these men to suggest, it is somehow wrong for former members to speak about their life experience? Or for that matter, should it not prompt some question about why former members "can't leave it alone"? Could it be they found the experience damaging and are seeking support from fellow Ex-Members? Or are motivated to warn others?

21

A Religion of Assumptions

by Cold Steel in

the jehovah's witnesses are a strange cultural phenomenon and one that has always puzzled me.

members call it "the truth" and, more boldly, "jehovah's organization.

" but many of those on the outside remain dumbfounded.

rawe

Hi Qcmbr,

Facinating! Very much a mirror of my experience. You might be interested to know, an Ex-Mormon returned missionary spoke at our 2013 Shun Run. He was officially excommunicated after coming out as gay. His experience with the faith, his family and coming to terms with being gay was actually very emotional to listen to. Personally it put some of the shunning I experience in perspective, that while a few JWs have chosen that path in regards to our family, at least there is acceptance in the wider community.

Take care,

-Randy

139

Ever consider joining The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

by rawe in

has anyone here left jehovah's witnesses to join the churuch of jesus christ of latter-day saints?

what was your motivation for doing so and how has it worked out?.

if you haven't joined the lds or considered it, as an ex-jw, what is your general view of the lds faith?.

rawe

Hi Designs,

"Be sure and read the Book of Mormon sometime, you will wonder to the end of time why bright well educated people could ever believe such crap, but hey that's the power of Religion."

I have read the Book of Mormon. Coming from a Bible reading background, it is pretty easy to spot the jump into KJV material in Nephi. Several consecutive chapters of KJV Isaiah are included verbatim. However, I found the read much easier than the Quran, that felt very foreign and repetition.

Cheers,

-Randy

139

Ever consider joining The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

by rawe in

has anyone here left jehovah's witnesses to join the churuch of jesus christ of latter-day saints?

what was your motivation for doing so and how has it worked out?.

if you haven't joined the lds or considered it, as an ex-jw, what is your general view of the lds faith?.

rawe

Hi Everyone,

Has anyone here left Jehovah's Witnesses to join The Churuch of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? What was your motivation for doing so and how has it worked out?

If you haven't joined the LDS or considered it, as an Ex-JW, what is your general view of the LDS faith?

Cheers,

-Randy

21

A Religion of Assumptions

by Cold Steel in

the jehovah's witnesses are a strange cultural phenomenon and one that has always puzzled me.

members call it "the truth" and, more boldly, "jehovah's organization.

" but many of those on the outside remain dumbfounded.

rawe

Hi Cold Steel,

Both Cofy and Qcmbr have commented on your current faith, which I assume is LDS (please correct me if I'm wrong). I've known one person who left Jehovah's Witnesses, became a Mormon, left that and is now an evangelical Christian. If you're using this forum as a safe-proxy to examine doubts you might have about Mormonism (perhaps even somewhat subconsciously) I have great sympathy for that, since I did exactly the same thing on the alt.religion.mormon Usenet group in the 1990s. If you had asked me at the time I would have not publically expressed any doubts my Witness faith, yet it facinated me how anyone could truly believe in Mormonism, when it has a so obviously flawed basis in the Book of Mormon.

I now believe my incredulity about why people believe was itself naive. Qcmbr I think hits upon some of the key reasons. The failed factual basis of a given faith is only one aspect, much larger is the wider cultural engagement. In terms of the failed facts, a simple read of a few right-sounding appologists and one can be comforted. But in the end there is no real basis to believe Babylon destroyed Jerusalem in 607 BCE (the real date in 587 BCE) and everyone outside the Witness faith is wrong. Likewise, there is no real basis to believe the history of pre-Columbus Americas involved ancient Jewish settlers of the Book of Mormon, and everyone outside the LDS faith is wrong.

Your OP opens the thread on how assumptions can be the basis for a faith, that seems to pop into existence with little else. Both Cofty & Qcmbr comments do make me wonder how other Ex-JWs and current Witnesses who have left yet, view Mormonism. I'll open a new thread on that.

Cheers,

-Randy

340

Fallacies about Faith

by tec in

jw
friends

peace to you!.

this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

rawe

Hi Perry,

"Prior to my belief and trust in Christ, there was little that worked to the degree that I wished it to in my life. I was powerless against my vices."

btw- If you're Christian faith has helped you overcome something negative in your life -- I am happy for you and good for you! Although I'm an atheist, I don't believe being religious is entirely negative. Even the Witnesses have proved to be the needed motivation for some to overcome smoking and other bad habits.

Cheers,

-Randy

340

Fallacies about Faith

by tec in

jw
friends

peace to you!.

this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

rawe

Hi Perry,

"You cannot partcipate in your own salvation, it is a gift."

Fundementally, Jehovah's Witnesses believe this too -- that salvation is a free gift. They also believe in original sin.

"Man is utterly depraved and is infected with vanity."

You can believe that if you wish, but it is not the only view of humankind. The trap I see in this form of thinking is not much different than the "rotten old system of things" talk one hears at the Kingdom Hall. Although, there are many "improving world conditions" -- just think of how many childhood diseases have been reduced or removed in recent history -- saying such is not permitted within the Witness faith. It is not permitted, because it conflicts with a narrative about worsening world conditions and last days, etc. If man is not vain and depraved as you say, then what? Perhaps a story about an internal defect in need of a supernatural fix won't sound as correct.

Cheers,

-Randy

21

A Religion of Assumptions

by Cold Steel in

the jehovah's witnesses are a strange cultural phenomenon and one that has always puzzled me.

members call it "the truth" and, more boldly, "jehovah's organization.

" but many of those on the outside remain dumbfounded.

rawe

Hi Cold Steel,

The progenitors of Jehovah's Witnesses were the International Bible Students under Charles Taze Russell. Jehovah's Witnesses only saw themselves as completely separated from the rest of Christendom during the era of Rutherford (2nd president of the Watchtower Society). When you look at Jehovah's Witnesses and Church of Jesus Christ of Later-day Saints, I think more broadly it reflects a sort of innovative spirit of the United States mixed with freedom of religion as a core principal of the nation. Another driver seems to be the youth of the country itself, where even more established religions such as Roman Catholic and various protestant forms had to look back to Europe to assert they were "old and well established."

This seems to have continued with various new religious movements forming, splitting and some declining, etc.

Cheers,

-Randy

8

Musings

by thedog1 in

jw
friends

apropo of nothing, i just wanted to share some thoughts.

i have started reading and posting here recently.

i have previously mentioned that i am an active jw, an elder who conducts the wt study.

rawe

Hi Thedog1,

I hope posting & reading here is helping -- perhaps in just being able to write out a few thoughts. I am glad to hear you're tuned in to your wife's concerns. I did not know the extent of guilt feelings my wife had until after we left and she felt safe to talk about it.

Do take care. And yes, many of the brothers and sisters are just fine people -- of course they continue to be once they leave too. If only the leadership would respect the conscience and intellect of members a bit more.

Take care,

-Randy

340

Fallacies about Faith

by tec in

jw
friends

peace to you!.

this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

rawe

Hi Perry,

"It's not so much that man doesn't choose God....it's that he is so depraved and full of himself that he CAN'T choose God..... without GRACE. Get it now?"

Human survival within a group can often be tied to obedience to a leader within the group. Other moral proposition also can come into play such as a willingness to share, by loyal, not cheat, etc. It should not surprise us that authors of Biblical material were obsessed with obedience and the idea there was some intrinsic defect of humans that caused bad behavior. However, such, I now believe, is a terrible way to view our fellow humans. To assume the starting position is defective and by God, they better hope for the grace of God, or else they're doomed.

None of us need be trapped by the writings of Hosea or Paul -- they're just men with ideas, some of which may be good, some of which may be off in the weeds.

Cheers,

-Randy