Posts by rawe

261

Evolution is Crap, there I said it!

by Crazyguy in

jw
friends

ok i started another thread and every one jumped on me because i was trying to take the theory of evolution out of the mix and most here seem to believe in it so i will just say it.

the theory of major evolution is crap!

the theory is falling apart.

rawe

Hi snare&racket,

"Oh my goodness...... Evolution is just the science of how animals change over time depending on the environment of the earth at the time...."

First, thanks for posting that picture of flagellum, that Michael Behe asserts is irreducibly complex and therefore could not have evolved. In the picture I counted about 10 components. I find that interesting because one of the illustrations Behe used in his book was animal crossing a road and having the luck of not getting hit my a car. While that would be reasonable to assume as possible, if the number of lanes increased to 1000 (my recall, please verify & correct) we should not expect success. In other words as the number of components required increases there gets a point where it becomes non-plausible to suggest they would all be present at the same time. But... 10 components is not a high number, certainly not "1000 lanes."

The other illustration Behe used was a mouse trap. This of course is a comparison between a non-biological systems that is ID vs a biological system, wherein we know how current examples of flagellums arrive, that is biological reproduction, even if we don't know the precise pathway that resulted in the first ever example of the flagellum.

But... let me throw this out there. I agree, the theory of evolution is really just a working model that does a fantanstic job of explaining how life changes over time and how all life is related. It does not address the origin of life for example. But Evolution is also Crap, at least to Crazyguy. I think there are reasons why this seems true as well. The first big reason is the seeming implication that evolution is a counter pointer to special creation as outlined in Genesis. The second is, in my opinion, truly ironic... that is various forces that contribute to our evolution as a species, such as ability to plan and purpose, the fact that we live a short time and die, that we are tool creators, drivers in regards to mate selection, how we process in-group vs out-group loyalty determination, etc, all make the theory of evolution seem wrong.

The process of evolution has resulted in the origin of a species, that ironically was destined to find the theory non-intuitive and somewhat unpleasant.

Cheers,

-Randy

261

Evolution is Crap, there I said it!

by Crazyguy in

jw
friends

ok i started another thread and every one jumped on me because i was trying to take the theory of evolution out of the mix and most here seem to believe in it so i will just say it.

the theory of major evolution is crap!

the theory is falling apart.

rawe

Hi *lost*,

they are very intelligent, thinking, emotional creatures. Quite amazing to watch and study.

Quick post before I head off to work... a few days ago just watched a Netflix documentary comparing wolves and dogs. The biggest difference: Dogs, unlike wolves will interact in a social manner with humans. Wolves by contrast are social only within their pack of other wolves. They demonstrated this with pointing to a treat under a upside down bucket. They also tied a treat to a rope that was impossible for the dog or wolf to get to. In the pointing case the dog followed the clue, the wolf not. In treat on a rope, the dog looked to the human for help, whereas the wolf continued in frustration.

Cheers,

-Randy

261

Evolution is Crap, there I said it!

by Crazyguy in

jw
friends

ok i started another thread and every one jumped on me because i was trying to take the theory of evolution out of the mix and most here seem to believe in it so i will just say it.

the theory of major evolution is crap!

the theory is falling apart.

rawe

Hi Cofty,

No he doesn't. He resorts to magical answers again and again.

It has been a long while since I read Behe, but help me out on my misunderstanding. My recall from his Black Box book was ID was required because of IC. That the intelligent designer placed within the first life form the potential for different systems. And in fact, this is was the primary flaw pointed out by Kenneth Miller. That evolution would not preserve, in working order, future-only functional sequences. This is a big problem, because where DNA does not code for functional genes we see the largest degree of mutation.

Nonetheless, I recall Behe saying he accepted macro evolution and a common ancestor between say Apes and Humans.

Cheers,

-Randy

261

Evolution is Crap, there I said it!

by Crazyguy in

jw
friends

ok i started another thread and every one jumped on me because i was trying to take the theory of evolution out of the mix and most here seem to believe in it so i will just say it.

the theory of major evolution is crap!

the theory is falling apart.

rawe

Hi S,

Hey, rawe, are you suggesting that the first life form was created by god?

No. Actually I believe that if God exists, is able to act without detection, and does so in violation of the laws of nature, then we cannot know anything about our world, even in principal.

We have lots of evidence for ID of many things, computers, cameras, cars, ant hills. We have lots of evidence for evolution, fossil record, DNA, actual experiments such as Richard Lenksi's work with E. coli. However, we are short on examples for the origin of life. But...

We do have, thanks to Miller, et al, have experiments on the origin of amino acids. And we have the testimony of experts like James Watson that life is basically chemistry and does not support the notion of "vitalism" (i.e. something mysterious and God-like about it). So my understanding is the origin of life is unknown, other than we do know it happened in the past. However, when it comes to "this is like that", I definately feel "origin of life is like other productions by natural forces that can (over the short term) build up complexity."

Cheers,

-Randy

261

Evolution is Crap, there I said it!

by Crazyguy in

jw
friends

ok i started another thread and every one jumped on me because i was trying to take the theory of evolution out of the mix and most here seem to believe in it so i will just say it.

the theory of major evolution is crap!

the theory is falling apart.

rawe

Hi S, et al,

Part of the reason I left the last one a question mark, was I had to hurry off to work. My point is intelligent design is a real and applies to many things. When a gopher digs a hole he (or she) is using his brain -- thus it can be said the hole is an example of ID. As is the arrow head, as is the Mona Lisa. We generally know the output of an intellect when we see it.

But the vast majority of scientists, especially biologists, reject the notion postulated by Behe, that the first example of life on the planet was the result of ID.

It is also generally understood and accepted that all examples of life now are definately not the result of ID in the present tense. Although a man or woman may use their intellect in the mate selection process, they have no real control over the purely natural processes that result in a new example of a human. Thus, comparing ID systems (such as a camera) to natural systems (such as an eye) is fundementally flawed.

If we accept that life now results from natural causes and not ID, why would we feel compelled to suggest the first example of life was ID?

For the sake of argument, lets say that is the case, life originates from ID. Even if that is the case, then when did it make the transition to natural forces? To Behe he stops at the first cell, then lets evolution take over. As Witnesses we were taught every species had to be specially created, based on the assumption that reproduction, selective pressures and mutations could never result in new species. That is really an odd view of ID -- considering the "intelligence" keeps creating species that ultimately go extinct, some where north of 90% of the time!

Cheers,

-Randy

261

Evolution is Crap, there I said it!

by Crazyguy in

jw
friends

ok i started another thread and every one jumped on me because i was trying to take the theory of evolution out of the mix and most here seem to believe in it so i will just say it.

the theory of major evolution is crap!

the theory is falling apart.

rawe

Hi Cantleave,

I really hope you don't teach science Randy!

I'm not a teacher. I work as a software engineer -- but please do expand on this.

Cheers,

-Randy

261

Evolution is Crap, there I said it!

by Crazyguy in

jw
friends

ok i started another thread and every one jumped on me because i was trying to take the theory of evolution out of the mix and most here seem to believe in it so i will just say it.

the theory of major evolution is crap!

the theory is falling apart.

rawe

Hi Julia,

I've touched on the two belief systems (evolution and ID) when teaching, while not promoting either one.

Our ability to understand the world is largely based on our ability to correctly separate things into two basic categories...

(1) Things that are the result of intelligence

(2) Things that are the result of natural processes without the input of an intelligence.

Thus when we see a gopher hole, we can assign the hole to the intellect of the gopher. However, the gopher is not the product of ID, we know it is the result of a process of sexual reproduction and growth.

A snowflake with its intricate crystal shape - #2

A round smooth rock - #2

A rock shaped into an arrow head - #1

The Mona Lisa - #1

All living life forms - #2 (i.e. come from some parent form of the life)

First example of a life form - #?

Cheers,

-Randy

140

WT Society holds EXTREME Responsibility for 1975 and False Expectations

by flipper in

jw
friends

however- many jw's who have come into the jw organization from like 1985 forward virtually may have no knowledge of the wt society's 1975 debacle and false predictions of the end times or armageddon predictions.

just like in in the book 1984 by george orwell the wt society has a way of not only erasing it's history so no newer witnesses will be aware of their false predictions, but also they are re-writing their history as if those false predictions never happened.. so for those of you here who may have never read or heard of how whipped up into an emotional frenzy witnesses were in the years just before 1975 by the wt society claiming the end was any day now- this threads for you.

to see the pressure that was put on jw's by the wt society to get rid of everything before " armageddon " .

rawe

Hi Flipper,

I was 9 years old in 1975. My parents were both disfellowshipped and had been since I was 4. We lived in Wells, BC, Canada, pop ~500. The nearest Kingdom Hall would have been in Quesnel over 50 miles away. And yet, I was excited and giddy at the prospect of the world coming to an end -- thanks in large part to my dad, who continued to preach the "truth" to his children. Somehow in my mind, I got it in my head the actual day would be December 25th, to show how bad Christmas was.

At that time I loved knowing the truth about Christmas and that Santa Claus wasn't real -- often arguing with my little friends on this subject. So... with out telling any one I counted down the days until 12/25/1975. Nothing happened. Being a kid I brushed it off and didn't think about it much after that. However, when I was studying the Life Everlasting book prior to my baptism in 1981 the study conductor wanted to skip over the chapter that emphasized 1975, but I insisted we cover it.

Cheers,

-Randy

261

Evolution is Crap, there I said it!

by Crazyguy in

jw
friends

ok i started another thread and every one jumped on me because i was trying to take the theory of evolution out of the mix and most here seem to believe in it so i will just say it.

the theory of major evolution is crap!

the theory is falling apart.

rawe

Hi LisaRose,

I wonder why those people who are frustrated with those who do not believe evolution even bother to read or post here?

Personally I have a few reasons for posting. I relate to Crazyguy's OP, in terms of how I felt about the subject as a believing JW. I really do hope to be helpful to any who are interested in the subject, while admiting I am not an expert by any means. Finally, I think it is a great way to learn more about a subject. Reading books is great too, but actually "testing the waters" so to speak gives me a sense whether or not I have gaps or weaknesses in my arguments -- knowing I'll likely be called out on them.

The subject does seem to generate emotion, so it may be difficult to be completely objective. I know when I really saw for the first time some of this dishonesty in blue Life How Did It Get Here? book, I was very frustrated and felt seriously betrayed by the author. Then throw into the mix, some who defend Creationism such as Behe seem to employ less than honest means.

But, yes, always good to put any hostility in check, as long as doing so doesn't divorce us of who we are.

Cheers,

-Randy

16

If you can understand THE CREATION OF EVE you can understand how the Watchtower spins lies

by Terry in

google_ad_section_start the watchtower, may 1, 1975, said of a watchtower bible school of gilead graduation held on march 2, 1975: (italics added).

another speaker, f. w. franz, the society's vice- president, forcefully impressed on the audience the urgency of the christian preaching work.

he stressed that, according to dependable bible chronology, 6,000 years of human history will end this coming september according to the lunar calendar.

rawe

Hi Terry,

All this raises a serious question about Jehovah directing the organization along with the relative importance of ideas. When I was studying in my teens the second book we covered was Life Everlasting in The Freedom of The Sons of God. Very detailed chronology from Adam down to 1975 and even 2975 (+ 1000 years) given a mention.

Why is all this research and detailed understanding of chronology suddenly never mentioned after 1975 comes and goes? Why is this chronology the subject of much print before 1975 but not afterwards? As far as I am aware none of the underying chronology has been revised since. So why not a Watchtower study or two showing how 1975 was the end of 6000 years of human existence?

Or consider the case of Reasoning From The Scriptures. It contained impressive analysis of the rise in the number of earthquakes in the 20th century. Now, I appreciate there is some serious objections to the methods employed in the analysis. But for argument sake, lets say, the point is completely solid. From 1914 until the research for the book was done there was a rise in the number of earthquakes. And this formed positive proof we were living in the "last days." What should one make of this reading in in 1985?

What about 1995, 10 years later?

Or 2005, 20 years later?

Or 2015, 30 years later?

Or 2025, 40 years later?

Would the author of Reasoning From The Scriptures, be willing to say, "Now when you read this earthquake analysis, you should understand that indicates we are living the the 'last days', but... the end could easily be down the road for another 30 years"?

So it goes, time is a harsh master for the those making end-of-days, soon, about-to, any-day-now pronouncements. And the kicker is Jehovah would know all along nothing would happen in 1914, 1925, 1975 or 28 years since the Reasoning book appeared.

Cheers,

-Randy