Posts by rawe

20

Clarifying who can be labelled Creationist.

by jonahstourguide in

jw
friends

hi folks.

october 15 2013 study watchtower page 7 para 3. the paragraph states that.

"fundamentalists of christendom teach that the universe, including our earth.

rawe

Hi jtg,

Upto to about the point the Insight volumes replaced the Aid book, Jehovah's Witnesses held that each creative day was 7000 years in length. Thus while they didn't believe the earth and animals where created just over 6000 years ago, it was still within the range of young-earth (6 x 7000 = 42,000). Modern Witnesses now allow for each creative day to be an unspecified length of time and even for one day to overlap with another. Thus an age of 13.7 billion for the Universe and 4.5 billion for the Earth would not be a point of objection. Despite this, authors of Awake! and The Watchtower do not often reference the 4.5 and 13.7 billion numbers.

Nonetheless, Jehovah's Witnesses teach the first human (Adam) to ever have existed was created in 4026 BCE and the first female (Eve) shortly afterwards. They are thus compelled to believe all variation in mitochondrial DNA sequences[1], that passes only through mother to offspring, has happened in the past 6,039 years. Furthermore Jehovah's Witnesses believe all air breathing life, was reduced to what could fit on Noah's Ark and this event happened in 2370 BCE or 4,383 years ago.

Jehovah's Witnesses are absolutely creationists, but are simply less consistent than young earth creationists. They allow chimpanzee to have existed for millions of years, but demand special pleading in the case of a closely related species -- humans.

Cheers,

-Randy

[1] mtDNA sequences can therefore change only via mutation. DNA sequeces provided by male sperm do not impact mtDNA sequences transmitted from one generation to the next.

79

The life differences between a good christian and good athiest

by EndofMysteries in

let's compare a christian who goes to a non judgemental / non guilt trip church which focuses really on the gospels, jesus teachings on being non judgemental, anything out of love there is no law against, and they contribute to society.

then an athiest who if you put side by side w/ the above christian, you would not know any difference unless you asked their beliefs.

both are good people, who are able to lead lives doing what they want, enjoying their life, and trying to help their neighbors too.

rawe

Hi Jwfacts,

"In my opinion, that is the only reason people worship God. If there was no promise of an afterlife, there would be no religious people. No one loves God, they love the promise of something else after death."

I think that is too narrow. Many (most?) religious people feel God is helping them right now, answering their prayers, giving them an absolute moral code that improves their lives, or the opposite -- evil spirit forces are against them, etc. I would say, selective pressure has produced a brain that is good at imaging a reward or danger, etc, and this has been beneficial to our survival, despite some occasional downsides.

Cheers,

-Randy

90

Why do so many think JW Religion is a Cult? (NO APOSTATES PLEASE)

by Brother Mike in

jw
friends

my question is, why do so many think the watchtower bible tract society is a cult?

.

rawe

Hi Brother Mike,

"My question is, Why do so many think the Watchtower Bible Tract Society is a Cult?"

fwiw: I rarely use the word "cult", but rather refer to Jehovah's Witnesses as either "Jehovah's Witnesses" or "the faith" or "my former faith", etc. But this is just more of my writing & speaking habits more than anything else. Since most of my reflections on the faith are about the people and not the corporation, I also rarely use the full legal name as you have here.

Your request for "no apostates" would basically preclude anyone posting here, since "apostate" literally means "stand away from" and posting here is at a minimum standing away from the direction from the society not to participate on sites like this, that sites like this are not required, anyone wishing accurate information on Jehovah's Witnesses online should be directed to jw.org[1] alone, etc. This was covered extensively in a Kingdom Ministry insert, even when I was in the faith (pre-2007).

I think there are two reasons why folks use the word "Cult" in references to the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society. First, I think those who leave eventually find it cathartic to admit to themselves and others they were part of a "Cult" -- to look in the mirror and say "I was a cult member" can be a powerful moment of progress in leaving the faith behind. Secondly, having had a negative experience with the faith, many are motivated to warn others that Jehovah's Witnesses are not as benign as they may appear to be, if all one knows is a bit about them from a door-to-door call.

Cheers,

-Randy

[1] previously watchtower.org

79

The life differences between a good christian and good athiest

by EndofMysteries in

let's compare a christian who goes to a non judgemental / non guilt trip church which focuses really on the gospels, jesus teachings on being non judgemental, anything out of love there is no law against, and they contribute to society.

then an athiest who if you put side by side w/ the above christian, you would not know any difference unless you asked their beliefs.

both are good people, who are able to lead lives doing what they want, enjoying their life, and trying to help their neighbors too.

rawe

Hi EndofMysteries,

"any hope for another life"

Our survival is tied to our ability to plan ahead and work towards a goal. This often invovles self-denial and pain in the moment. Think of the simple act of preparing a meal -- the labor is expended first, then the reward is later. Likewise with hunting, sometimes incredible patience and endurance is required before we are finally rewarded. Of course we would do none of this if we couldn't imagine the future reward.

What though happens if we imagine a reward that will never be achieved? Is there any harm in that? Could anchillary benefits in the present, compenstate for lack of an final reward?

Cheers,

-Randy

13

Interview with an Apostate: Rubadubdub

by rubadubdub in

tell us a little about yourself and your family.

?xml:namespace prefix = "o" ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /.

married 35 years to a raised-in since five years old, now ex-jw.

rawe

Hi Rubadubdub,

"I thought, “If one more person tells me my kids are going to die. . .” That was my tipping point. The bottom line was that I was never going to shun either of my children."

What a wondeful expression! The organization demands loyalty the exceeds everything else, including towards ones family. Despite protests to the contrary this is not different than others faiths with similar practices such as the Unification Church, the Amish or even the Westboro Baptist Church.

Cheers,

-Randy

11

Interview with an Apostate: rawe (Randy)

by rawe in

tell us a little about yourself and your family.. my name is randy, i live in chandler, az with my wife and our daughters.

my oldest is married and has a son, making us grandparents.

my second still lives at home with us, but recently got engaged, so will be leaving the nest soon.

rawe

Hi Neverendingjourney,

Very cool! If you can make it, our next meetup for Ex-JW Chandler group is this Wed at 7:00pm at the Blue 32 in Chandler. Confession is an assistant organizer of the group. We are planning on repeating the Shun Run event for 2014. Same format as 2013, walk through Papago Park, followed by a meeting at the library where several will speak on a number of subjects. I will publish more details as the date gets closer. I still haven't even authored my annual letter to SDB:SSY -- although on a few of my runs a few ideas flash through my mind. I keep coming back to Prov 18:1 about the one isolating himself, against all practical wisdom he will break forth.

The idea being, that the leadership of Jehovah's Witnesses keep isolating themselves from the norms of the rest of the world and where has it lead? A lawyer in abuse case saying "remember we're not the Catholic Church." That the better course, is to join the rest of the world in rejecting small-mind cult-like thinking and allow members to have and use their own conscience. Getting all the words and throughts right is a challenge. Not that I really expect them to read it or pay heed -- instead I wish for the words to pay honor to all the brave souls willing to step into the void and move away from the comfort of their Witness world for the sake of their conscience.

Cheers,

-Randy

12

Question for exjws who are now atheist..

by EndofMysteries in

this question is for athiests who had been jw's, and when leaving, had to pretty much start fresh (if most of your association had been jw's).. to help you better answer the question, here is first the reason i am asking it.

my whole life and assocation were jw's only.

when i left, it was at first being pretty isolated while making new friends/etc from scratch.

rawe

Hi EndofMysteries,

"I was curious if any athiests would join something like that, not because of the beliefs or religious aspect but the community aspect of it, provided they allowed non believers like you said."

My wife directly asked Rev. Andy after the service how many members would identify themselves as atheists. He responded about 1/2. The congregation has about 200 or so members. As far as I can tell both Unitarians and Universalists have Christian roots that started with the rejection of damnation (i.e. universal salvation). In 1961 the two groups merged to form the UU Church. Since they are liberal and inclusive those who didn't fit into other religious settings found their way into UU. The growh of atheists and humanists in the group I think is fairly recent. I still have a fair amount of ignorance about this -- so please don't take what I say as for certain.

"Just hypothetically if I became athiest, after seeing what a real group as Jesus said, they have love among themselves, is like, I think just for those things I'd stick around."

In the book The Portable Atheist - Essential Readings for the Non-Believer, page 307 has an bit by Richard Dawkins entitled Atheists for Jesus. In this Dawkins makes the point modern atheists have parallels with Jesus, in particular his rejection of "many aspects of Yahweh's vengeful nastiness." The problem of course in testing the waters of atheism, is we may have little personal choice in the matter, but rather feel strongly compelled by the evidence before us. The harder we try to find some reason to retain belief in God, very well may lead us to deeper rejection of the notion entirely. That was true in my case -- it is, I must now admit, just who I am.

Yet, I too feel a longing for belonging to coin a phrase. Will the UU church work for this? I don't know, but I hope so.

Cheers,

-Randy

34

thedog1 said "I just listened to your JC hearing for re-instatement"

by KateWild in

thedog1 said.............. hi sam.

i just listened to your jc hearing for re-instatement.

without knowing the details of what happened it is difficult to make a comment on it but here goes.

rawe

Hi Everyone,

I should add the deviant sexual behaviour would need to be something that would generally fall below community standards, even for "non-Christians" or "nations" as Paul says - 1 Cor 5:1.

Cheers,

-Randy

34

thedog1 said "I just listened to your JC hearing for re-instatement"

by KateWild in

thedog1 said.............. hi sam.

i just listened to your jc hearing for re-instatement.

without knowing the details of what happened it is difficult to make a comment on it but here goes.

rawe

Hi Thedog1,

"This seems to me to be a direction from Paul rather than simply a suggestion. How should we apply this today?"

To follow the 1 Cor 5 & 2 Cor 2 model closely it would need to work like this: A prominent leader within the Christian community would author a public letter to a congregation wherein man involved in deviant sexual behaviour would be called out for removal. Among Jehovah's Witnesses, this would be the equivalent of a Governing Body member or other individual who authors published material. In a follow up, again the prominent leader would publically say something like this "This rebuke given by the majority is sufficent for such a man" (2 Cor 2:6).

Although, our training as elders schools us on how procedures work within the Witness faith, that is where it goes off into the weeds. There is just no clear parallel between NT writings of Paul and how the quasi-judicial process of Jehovah's Witnesses works. Although there is talk of a Bible trained conscience trained to distinguish between right and wrong (Heb 5:14) in reality individual members are asked to provide the rebuke by relying implicitly on the conscience of the elders involved, wherein even asking for the facts of a case is forbidden.

Cheers,

-Randy

11

Interview with an Apostate: rawe (Randy)

by rawe in

tell us a little about yourself and your family.. my name is randy, i live in chandler, az with my wife and our daughters.

my oldest is married and has a son, making us grandparents.

my second still lives at home with us, but recently got engaged, so will be leaving the nest soon.

rawe

Hi OnedayillBeFree,

Agreed!

Hi Cofty,

I was surprised to see you left the Witnesses to join another Christian group, and only became an atheist after further processing more evidence.

Hi DesirousOfChange,

The faith was helpful during my younger years. Since my home life was so disfunctional it wouldn't have taken much for it to be helpful. In any regards, being a 'fatherless boy' in the congregation seems to have drawn a lot of kindness my way. My mistake was assuming that because this was the case for me it would also be true for my children -- completely wrong on that point! The PO who wanted to act against my daughter, has a daughter of his own just a bit older. I never met her, but apparently, after pioneering she up and left and was DF'd. I have always had a bit of a feeling that his view of my daughter and her "rebel ways" (not really, but you know...) was a reflection of his own circumstances.

Whereas I have a wonderful relationship with my daughter, her husband and our first grandson, that PO is still shunning his daughter all these years later.

But, yes, despite how smart I thought I was, even being an admitted (to the elders) doubter of God's existence and believer in the theory of evolution yet still having the bookstudy in my home -- it took being spit in the eye to wake me up!

Cheers everyone,

-Randy