Posts by rawe

21

A Religion of Assumptions

by Cold Steel in

the jehovah's witnesses are a strange cultural phenomenon and one that has always puzzled me.

members call it "the truth" and, more boldly, "jehovah's organization.

" but many of those on the outside remain dumbfounded.

Both Cofy and Qcmbr have commented on your current faith, which I assume is LDS (please correct me if I'm wrong). I've known one person who left Jehovah's Witnesses, became a Mormon, left that and is now an evangelical Christian. If you're using this forum as a safe-proxy to examine doubts you might have about Mormonism (perhaps even somewhat subconsciously) I have great sympathy for that, since I did exactly the same thing on the alt.religion.mormon Usenet group in the 1990s. If you had asked me at the time I would have not publically expressed any doubts my Witness faith, yet it facinated me how anyone could truly believe in Mormonism, when it has a so obviously flawed basis in the Book of Mormon.

I now believe my incredulity about why people believe was itself naive. Qcmbr I think hits upon some of the key reasons. The failed factual basis of a given faith is only one aspect, much larger is the wider cultural engagement. In terms of the failed facts, a simple read of a few right-sounding appologists and one can be comforted. But in the end there is no real basis to believe Babylon destroyed Jerusalem in 607 BCE (the real date in 587 BCE) and everyone outside the Witness faith is wrong. Likewise, there is no real basis to believe the history of pre-Columbus Americas involved ancient Jewish settlers of the Book of Mormon, and everyone outside the LDS faith is wrong.

Your OP opens the thread on how assumptions can be the basis for a faith, that seems to pop into existence with little else. Both Cofty & Qcmbr comments do make me wonder how other Ex-JWs and current Witnesses who have left yet, view Mormonism. I'll open a new thread on that.

Cheers,

-Randy

340

Fallacies about Faith

by tec in

jw
friends

peace to you!.

this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

rawe

Hi Perry,

"Prior to my belief and trust in Christ, there was little that worked to the degree that I wished it to in my life. I was powerless against my vices."

btw- If you're Christian faith has helped you overcome something negative in your life -- I am happy for you and good for you! Although I'm an atheist, I don't believe being religious is entirely negative. Even the Witnesses have proved to be the needed motivation for some to overcome smoking and other bad habits.

Cheers,

-Randy

340

Fallacies about Faith

by tec in

jw
friends

peace to you!.

this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

rawe

Hi Perry,

"You cannot partcipate in your own salvation, it is a gift."

Fundementally, Jehovah's Witnesses believe this too -- that salvation is a free gift. They also believe in original sin.

"Man is utterly depraved and is infected with vanity."

You can believe that if you wish, but it is not the only view of humankind. The trap I see in this form of thinking is not much different than the "rotten old system of things" talk one hears at the Kingdom Hall. Although, there are many "improving world conditions" -- just think of how many childhood diseases have been reduced or removed in recent history -- saying such is not permitted within the Witness faith. It is not permitted, because it conflicts with a narrative about worsening world conditions and last days, etc. If man is not vain and depraved as you say, then what? Perhaps a story about an internal defect in need of a supernatural fix won't sound as correct.

Cheers,

-Randy

21

A Religion of Assumptions

by Cold Steel in

the jehovah's witnesses are a strange cultural phenomenon and one that has always puzzled me.

members call it "the truth" and, more boldly, "jehovah's organization.

" but many of those on the outside remain dumbfounded.

rawe

Hi Cold Steel,

The progenitors of Jehovah's Witnesses were the International Bible Students under Charles Taze Russell. Jehovah's Witnesses only saw themselves as completely separated from the rest of Christendom during the era of Rutherford (2nd president of the Watchtower Society). When you look at Jehovah's Witnesses and Church of Jesus Christ of Later-day Saints, I think more broadly it reflects a sort of innovative spirit of the United States mixed with freedom of religion as a core principal of the nation. Another driver seems to be the youth of the country itself, where even more established religions such as Roman Catholic and various protestant forms had to look back to Europe to assert they were "old and well established."

This seems to have continued with various new religious movements forming, splitting and some declining, etc.

Cheers,

-Randy

8

Musings

by thedog1 in

jw
friends

apropo of nothing, i just wanted to share some thoughts.

i have started reading and posting here recently.

i have previously mentioned that i am an active jw, an elder who conducts the wt study.

rawe

Hi Thedog1,

I hope posting & reading here is helping -- perhaps in just being able to write out a few thoughts. I am glad to hear you're tuned in to your wife's concerns. I did not know the extent of guilt feelings my wife had until after we left and she felt safe to talk about it.

Do take care. And yes, many of the brothers and sisters are just fine people -- of course they continue to be once they leave too. If only the leadership would respect the conscience and intellect of members a bit more.

Take care,

-Randy

340

Fallacies about Faith

by tec in

jw
friends

peace to you!.

this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

rawe

Hi Perry,

"It's not so much that man doesn't choose God....it's that he is so depraved and full of himself that he CAN'T choose God..... without GRACE. Get it now?"

Human survival within a group can often be tied to obedience to a leader within the group. Other moral proposition also can come into play such as a willingness to share, by loyal, not cheat, etc. It should not surprise us that authors of Biblical material were obsessed with obedience and the idea there was some intrinsic defect of humans that caused bad behavior. However, such, I now believe, is a terrible way to view our fellow humans. To assume the starting position is defective and by God, they better hope for the grace of God, or else they're doomed.

None of us need be trapped by the writings of Hosea or Paul -- they're just men with ideas, some of which may be good, some of which may be off in the weeds.

Cheers,

-Randy

340

Fallacies about Faith

by tec in

jw
friends

peace to you!.

this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

rawe

Hi Perry,

"Now he reveals himself privately once someone decides to believe. Do you blame him?"

A general observation can be made on this point. The more distant the account of God's dealing is from the audience the larger in scope the action tends to be (not always of course). Thus in the NT miracles happen only in a small area with just a few people around, or even just one. But in the OT, while this is sometimes reported (see 1 Samuel 3 where God speaks to Samuel regarding Eli), there are much larger settings for some of the accounts, including of course a world-wide flood, separating the waters of the Red Sea, etc.

If however, someone reports being alone and hearing a voice, there is no reason we are compelled to believe it is anything other than what is going on in the mind of the person who had the experience. Of course if God chose to communicate something he would know that would be impossible for the subject to know, such as the winning numbers for the next 10 state lotteries, then we may need to conclude something different.

Cheers,

-Randy

25

Question

by Fading Begins in

jw
friends

i am sure that this has already been discussed, so maybe someone could direct me to the correct link.

i just haven't been able to access this site as often as i would like.

at the meeting tonight (i wasn't there but was told about it), the brothers were told to pack up a "survival kit" with enough provisions to last for six months - water, medications etc.

rawe

Hi Fading Begins,

"brothers were told to pack up a "survival kit" with enough provisions to last for six months - water, medications etc."

Interesting and not worse advice one could give. This struck me as Mormon-esq, as they are encouraged to have on hand 1 year supply of food. The local Costco has several items you can see are designed to be bought by those interested in this.

However, if you want to be practical how about this...

Brother & Sisters, try and save up enough money to live several months between jobs.

Brother & Sisters, think ahead to your retirement years, save little by little so you'll have what you need in retirement. Many governments have allow you to put savings into an account that is not taxed (aka 401K, IRA and RothIRA for the USA and RRSP for Canada). Do that.

Brother & Sisters, plan now for your post public school education -- it can be expensive -- but it is a known fact that those who have post public school education will be higher wage earners and have more job flexibility over their lifetime. College and University education oftentimes results in the development of critical thinking skills that in turn can help people see logical fallacies, even when presented within the context of cherished beliefs.

Cheers,

-Randy

340

Fallacies about Faith

by tec in

jw
friends

peace to you!.

this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

rawe

Hi Perry,

"The fact that when she called to tell her boyfriend about her encounter with God, it was at that moment BEFORE she cold tell him, that he related how he had been praying and felt led to break up with her because of the uneven yoking thingy....is just exactly the way God works. Bam, Bam ... right in a row to try and get your attention."

I thought that was an interesting part of the story too. If God, exists in the mind of he believer, then one of the markers of the experience would be ego-centric. It is about the believer, because it is the believer. I see no reason to doubt the sequence here, i.e., that she had the 'come to me' as commanded by Jesus experience, was afraid to relate it to her boyfriend, then he reports the prayer to her, then she is further down the path towards belief.

The sequence seems random, but would it be? If they were in a relationship and he was motivated to pray to see if they should break up or not, don't you think it would be reasonable to assume, discussions about faith and lack of it had been happening? And that such, may have been contributing to some mental stress on Kirsten? When former Christians become atheists they have already processed information about these sort of events, not the least of which is the conversion of Saul (later known as Paul) on the road to Damasucs (Acts 9).

One immediate notices the fact Christians accept some and reject others, not because of believability of the experience itself, but the degree to which the one who had the experience is in agreement ones prior beliefs. Thus Saul/Paul experience is accepted. Kirsten experience is accepted. But the experience of Joseph Smith is rejected. The experience of someone who encounters an alien from a UFO is rejected.

Cheers,

-Randy

340

Fallacies about Faith

by tec in

jw
friends

peace to you!.

this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

rawe

Hi Perry,

"Perhaps her [Democratic Fox News Commentator, Kirsten Powers] testimony will shed some light on the kind of dynamic, interactive faith that Christians have . It is sometimes hard to explain except to describe the kinds of things that God does with it . Kirsten's story is pretty typical when God happens."

Despite being an athiest myself, I believe God does exist, but only as a concept within the mind of believers. This makes God very personal and immediate and powerful as the individual. As believers group together in like-minded thought exchange God can become a shared concept and then as powerful and as enduring as the group itself.

Notice how Kirsten describes her conversion in 2006: I woke up in what felt like a strange cross between a dream and reality. Jesus came to me and said 'Here I am.'

The account goes on about her boyfriend praying for her, thinking they needed to break up, her inability to shake off the experience, etc. But... in the end, it is an internal experience, that cannot and should not be confused for objective truth about existence of God apart of what is going on in her mind. Atheist's too of course experience their non-belief, but more often than not you'll hear them explain it in terms of conclusions (even reluctantly so) they've reached after looking at available evidence.

Cheers,

-Randy