just by knowing what will happen, that doesn't mean that we can prevent or cause something to happen.
my knowing that does not prevent them the free will of making the choice.. it's the same with god.
if god is not restricted to existence in the present, then the future is known by god because god indwells the future as well as the present and the past.
CA - They also know the Bible and what the Bible says about God.
Just a slight correction on the above statement. You mean what ancient people made up about what they thought god was and how it would be interpreted a million different ways and eventually how all of this conjecture would eventually be called the bible.
i`m only halfway through chapter 4 and enjoying what i have read so far .so why am i asking for peoples comments now ?
the reason i have is this : i wish i had done something like this when i first was approached by the witnesses ,i beleive i would have been more informed to make some enlightened decisisions that would eventually shape my future .. whereas not doing so i spent the next 33 years a slave of the watchtower , and not just me but my wife and children , not that i`m suggesting i would be a slave of richard dawkins , but i can weigh up the pros and cons as i progress through his book ,then hopefully i can draw the right conclusions , if their are any.. smiddy.
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I enjoyed every single page because his viewpoint is not locked in the Christian / Theistic mindset. Liberating.
scholars lump these groups togather because they all.
purport to not be interested in religion or spirituality.. but one observed notes; "sociolgist point out that there.
are no truly "secular" societies..."nonreligious" people....are.
"Many have made the conscious choice not to explore their faith"
I didn't realize I was born equipped with faith. Did it go somewhere? Is it beside by Bathook on my Batbelt?
why did he not put pen to papyrus, all the wise sayings that are attributed to him by others.?.
he is supposed to be the greater moses , at least moses is credited with writing the first five books of the bible , admittedlly some centuries later .
jesus never wrote anything at all .. if jesus is the greater moses ,what writings has he done ?...zilch.
PS - While that is an important point and a good example, it is also important to understand that the gospels and letters were NOT written or passed on in a " vacum ", one of the things that Paul does is stated that there were live witnesses to what he is preaching, witnesses that can be contacted to confirm what the gospel is and what Jesus said IN PERSON.
Granted, in regards to the copies we have NOW, we have no such gurantees , BUT the NT documents are viewed by the majority of historians as historically reliable in that, what happened was viewed by those that wrote it and passed them on as being historically accurate.
X - Not to be argumentative, but you make several assertions.
1. Witnesses that can be contacted? Are they not dead? If so, how can you contact them?
2. Gospels and letters were NOT passed down in a 'vacuum'? Are you sure about that?
3. Majority of historians view the bible as historically reliable? That is a pretty major assertion, don't you think?
edited for format
why did he not put pen to papyrus, all the wise sayings that are attributed to him by others.?.
he is supposed to be the greater moses , at least moses is credited with writing the first five books of the bible , admittedlly some centuries later .
jesus never wrote anything at all .. if jesus is the greater moses ,what writings has he done ?...zilch.
Tec - Yes, and?
Someone said the words. If it is Christ who later does what those words attributed to him said he would do... then does it make sense that it might have been some unknown person who first said those words?
X - Yes absolutely. It is entirely reasonable to entertain this. Show love to your neighbor. I do that. Does that make me Jesus?
Michale told us that Bob said he was going to visit Sue in a few weeks. Bob does visit Sue in a few weeks.
Does it make sense to conclude that maybe it was some unknown guy who said he was going to visit Sue, instead? When it is Bob who visited Sue, and not some unknown guy?
X - Unfortunatley, your constructed analogy is missing elements of mine, namely time (stretches of time). Plus your example is not succinctly describing what I am trying to argue.
why did he not put pen to papyrus, all the wise sayings that are attributed to him by others.?.
he is supposed to be the greater moses , at least moses is credited with writing the first five books of the bible , admittedlly some centuries later .
jesus never wrote anything at all .. if jesus is the greater moses ,what writings has he done ?...zilch.
Tec - If what was written is true, then it makes sense that the one attributed with having spoken that truth... is also true.
How so? Anyone could have said those same things and mistakenly attributed or co-opted by a guy named Jesus. Asserting that it makes sense is not necessarily so.
Joe says that the car is blue. Decades later, Jane writes down that Frank said the car is blue. (Jane either mistakenly or by deciet attributes this saying to Frank).
Centuries later, 'he' (Frank) tells me (somehow) that the car is blue. Therefore, car = blue and therefore Frank is real.
why did he not put pen to papyrus, all the wise sayings that are attributed to him by others.?.
he is supposed to be the greater moses , at least moses is credited with writing the first five books of the bible , admittedlly some centuries later .
jesus never wrote anything at all .. if jesus is the greater moses ,what writings has he done ?...zilch.
Tec - If He confirms it, then yes, I can say with 100% certainty. If the thing written down is TRUE (as this one is, confirmed to me because He does speak and teach and guide me), then I can speak with some degree of certainty that what was written to have happened - in this case, that Christ said this thing at that time - DID happen.
But you still don't know if he actually said those things. As you said earlier, you were not in Jerusalem at that time.
The fact of the matter is that anyone could have said those things and centuries later, those sayings/statements could resonate with anyone of us. That doesn't mean Jesus actually said those things. It could have been a guy name Bert instead but mistakenly atrributed to that other guy named Jesus.
why did he not put pen to papyrus, all the wise sayings that are attributed to him by others.?.
he is supposed to be the greater moses , at least moses is credited with writing the first five books of the bible , admittedlly some centuries later .
jesus never wrote anything at all .. if jesus is the greater moses ,what writings has he done ?...zilch.
Tec - He speaks to me, in spirit, and that is how I can have any degree of certainty about anything; if he teaches me something or guides me to understand.
I can ask Him, to have certainty.
So the answer is, yes, I can say with certainty on the things that He has confirmed to me.
(Some other things I can think are correct, because they resonate or because they are in unity with Him and His teachings.)
Well, I wasn't asking what 'He' is saying to you. I'm talking about statements that were written down by people that they attribute to some guy named Jesus. Can you say with 100% certainty that those sayings came directly from Jesus. Or, is it quite possibly just made up stuff, regardless of what resonates in you.
why did he not put pen to papyrus, all the wise sayings that are attributed to him by others.?.
he is supposed to be the greater moses , at least moses is credited with writing the first five books of the bible , admittedlly some centuries later .
jesus never wrote anything at all .. if jesus is the greater moses ,what writings has he done ?...zilch.
Tec -I know that He speaks and teaches in spirit.
I was not there in Jerusalem so as to know with certainty of what was said there, xchange...but I do know that what he was written to have said istrue. So i have no reason not to think that those who wrote that down were wrong.
So you can't say with any degree of certainty that Jesus said anything. Just that the sentiments - that are atrributed to a man named Jesus - somehow resonate with you.
edited formatting
why did he not put pen to papyrus, all the wise sayings that are attributed to him by others.?.
he is supposed to be the greater moses , at least moses is credited with writing the first five books of the bible , admittedlly some centuries later .
jesus never wrote anything at all .. if jesus is the greater moses ,what writings has he done ?...zilch.
Tec - Well, I believe He said it to his apostles first in Jerusalem ;)
Someone eventually wrote that down, along with some other things that he said.
He still says that - and other things - now, in spirit.
And you know this with certainty?
