WontLeave

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Posts by WontLeave

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  13

  Modern Bet Hillel and Bet Shamai?

  by WontLeave in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs
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  WontLeave
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  382

  The Gentile Times Reconsidered

  by Spade in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  disproving the date 1914 as a significant year in bible prophecy is of great importance to some (e.g.

  carl o. jonsson).

  along with the meticulous details of bible and secular chronology, broadening one's horizons when assessing exactly what this date represents when compared against the 6000 years of human history likewise has merit.

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  WontLeave

  The Watchtower almost had me on the 607 B.C.E. thing, too. I would accept Bible chronology before secular, if they disagreed. The problem is, they don't disagree. The Watchtower simply picked the wrong date to count 70 years back from. Their own literature can be used to refute the 607 B.C.E. date, per my timeline. Feel free to comment, if you find a discrepancy. I don't care who is right or wrong, but what is right or wrong.
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  47

  Blind Allegiance to G.B. supported by scripture?

  by honorsthesis in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  hey everyone,.

  i have been getting in on going debates with brothers in the congregation about the role of the governing body.

  i feel that jehovah would not want us to blindly follow a particular g.b.

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  WontLeave

  Spade,

  You're presenting a false dichotomy. Don't get me wrong, many people here are simply making excuses. But just because some here (perhaps many, perhaps most) are wrong doesn't make the Governing Body seating itself in the seat of Moses right. That is typical Jehovah's Witness logic: If we can find fault with other people, that will make us right. Sure, most of the doctrine is sound, but so was that of the Pharisees. They weren't teaching a triune God, Hellfire, immortal soul, etc. Their main fault was their dictatorial attitude and placing themselves above the people, to enforce their own version of God's word; to glorify themselves. The Governing Body does exactly the same thing, demanding unquestioned obedience of fellow humans; fellow Christians. There is zero precedent for that in Scripture, without some convoluted chaining together of unrelated points, reading far more into the text than what it states, and some blind faith in the 'interpretation' presented by the very people who claim the interpretation is about them, which is circular logic.

  They use 607 B.C.E., which is demonstrably false. They cherry-pick and rewrite prophetic interpretations they've made, after the fact. They use the "1st-century governing body" example in Acts, which is a blatant twisting of actual events. They make and repeal doctrine on a whim, with no regard for fact or Scripture. They use a remark Jesus makes one time about a faithful and discrete slave and make several leaps about when that will be (even though it appears it will be immediately before the Great Tribulation), who it will be, what it will mean, etc.

  With so much of the Bible warning against following humans, why would Jesus foretell a group of humans becoming "God's exclusive channel of communication" with an offhand remark? Human leadership is not permitted in Christianity, per many, many Biblical verses. The "books" have been repeatedly and obviously cooked many times by the very people who claim a position that shouldn't exist. They insist anything but slavish devotion to their every whim is equivalent to turning one's back on Jehovah himself. Great claims demand great evidence and the Governing Body just doesn't offer it. In fact, when you check their credentials, their claims, and their arithmetic, none of it adds up to any proof. They are no different from the Pharisees. Any rights of claim you feel they have, the Pharisees made 2000 years ago and with more to back their claims.

  For truly, if the trumpet sounds an indistinct call, who will get ready for battle? - 1Cor 14:8

  If you feel you need some men who can't figure out what "generation" means - because they're still trying to make the 1914 date useful long after its expiration date - to interpret the Bible for everybody else, you're calling God a liar.

  All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work. - 2Tim 3:16-17 (emphasis added)

  But no, the Governing Body wants us to read the Watchtower to set things in the Bible straight. They tell us the only way to be fully competent and completely equipped is with their literature. I believe we can agree that churches exist to confuse people. Nobody who reads the Bible on his/her own would ever come up with the Trinity doctrine. That kind of confusion and twisting of God's word can only come from substantial outside influence from an authoritarian clergy class. Likewise, nobody would ever come to the conclusion there should be a "Governing Body" calling the shots in the Christian congregation without the Watchtower twisting the Scriptures to that meaning.

  Do I claim the Watchtower literature isn't mostly accurate? no. But the Pharisees were mostly accurate. Do I claim the Watchtower literature isn't used by God? no. But so was the Pharisee arrangement; they were, after all, priests in God's Temple and synagogues. But when the GB and elders start trying to trump the Bible with their writings, they've overstepped their authority to teach and shepherd the flock. They've begun skinning the flock and tossing it around, to their fleeting, personal opinions and rules. If an elder comes to me about some wrongdoing on my part, I'll humbly accept his counsel. When that same elder comes to me about the style (not the content) of music I listen to because it's not the same as his, I'll dismiss him and his opinion. When he invokes "Be obedient to those who are taking the lead" to order me around to suit his personal agenda, I'll tell him he's off his nut. If you don't think that's exactly what's going on at a congregation level and an organization level, then you're either totally blind, brown-nosing, or very fortunate.

  The Watchtower has usurped authority over the world-wide congregation to tell us we can't have organ transplants, accept vaccines, get sterilized, wear beards, women can't wear pants (except on a farm), our physical heart in our chest controls our emotions, Jehovah lives on a planet in the Pleiades and many other things I'm sure you're aware of since you come to this forum. Then, they demand we believe every crumb of "spiritual food" they force feed us or risk being "marked" or labeled an apostate and thrown out.

  Every saying of God is refined. He is a shield to those taking refuge in him. Add nothing to his words, that he may not reprove you, and that you may not have to be proved a liar. - Prov 30:5-6

  To the making of many books there is no end, and much devotion [to them] is wearisome to the flesh. - Ecc 12:12

  "In the abundance of words there does not fail to be transgression, but the one keeping his lips in check is acting discreetly." (Prov 10:19) But no, the Watchtower has to weigh in on everything, constantly reminding us that they are "God's mouthpiece", even making rules on subjects where the Bible remains silent. They invalidate the Bible with their Watchtower traditions, adding rules that don't exist and ignoring ones that do. Time after time, throughout history - in Israel, in Rome when Jesus and the apostles were present, during the Inquisitions, during the Reformation -individuals have had to choose between a corruption of the truth and their God. We are quickly approaching that crossroad again. Will you follow a false prophet who has seated himself in the seat of Moses or will you allow the Bible to speak its truth to you without filtering it through fallible human understanding with imperfect human motivations?

  I don't promote separation from the organization, but warn against a devotion to it or turning a blind eye to what direction it's taking. Jehovah's house has once again been taken over. It needs righteous Christians to balance the scales. But stop looking outward for all potential threats. The "evil slave" will be inside. They Bible doesn't say they beat former fellow slaves, but "fellow slaves". The disgusting thing will be standing in the holy place, not a fake holy place or a formerly-holy place. It's not Jesus' time to oust the current leadership, and to presume to attack them on our own would probably prove detrimental to us. But, not recognizing a difference between the Creator of the Universe and a group of men will be infinitely more destructive. When you hear "wait on Jehovah" and think "wait on the Watchtower", you've lost your direction. We've been warned enough, through God's Word, to take personal responsibility for our doctrine, our thoughts, our feelings, our actions, and our worship. Be very, very careful not to give what belongs to God to a publishing company or the men in charge of it.

  Cursed is the able-bodied man who puts his trust in earthling man and actually makes flesh his arm. - Jer 17:3

  even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to YOU as good news something beyond what we declared to YOU as good news, let him be accursed. - Gal 1:8
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  25

  Any trouble for faders going back and forth; JWD and the KH

  by OnTheWayOut in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  do any people trying to fade out of the organization have any trouble coming to this forum and going to the kingdom hall?.

  specific problems might be:.

  1. wanting to use acronyms or names from the jwd (jaydub, borg, etc.

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  WontLeave

  I come and go as I please. They know my contempt for their man-made rules from my refusal to participate in them. They don't scare me (in fact, I believe they're a little afraid of me) and I don't require their approval or fake love. Their back-room interrogations have gotten old and I will no longer participate in them, either. They way they see it, I'm the rebel trouble-maker, starting drama. The way I see it, they're the ones making all the stupid rules, setting up the hoops for us to jump through, and drawing all the lines in the sand. Jesus and his followers didn't comply, so neither do I. They're picking the fight; not me.

  Next time they come with some crap like "Can we talk to you for a minute?" I'll ask "Who's 'we'? (to find out if there are 3 of them or if it includes somebody I already know is a total Pharisee I won't want to talk to) and what about?" If if looks okay, but I find I don't like the scenario I'll just explain I thought it was for an apology and to reinstate my "privileges" and walk out. Any inkling of an ambush or a JC and I'll just tell them I don't have time and to call and set an appointment. That way I can get my nuclear scriptures, damning WT articles, and digital recorder ready, so I can post their crap on youtube.

  I've given up on the people. I don't socialize with them at all. They're not "friends" or "brothers". They don't do anything together (at my current Hall), except sit in a room for 2 hours at a time. There are no social events and nobody seems to really know or care about anyone else there. I don't have anything in common with them intellectually, philosophically, musically, or any other "ly". I show up 2 minutes before the meeting and bolt when the closing worship session to the WBTS (prayer) is over. I know better than to talk to them, because they just piss me off with their judgmentalism and idolatry or embarrass me with their ignorance and stupidity.
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  43

  Does Jehovah hate beards?

  by brotherunsure in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  has the watchtower ever rationalized their obsession with depilation or claimed there was a biblical basis for banning beards, or is it simply because jehovah's corporation/faithful and discrete slave says so?.

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  WontLeave

  "Jesus shaves" - Watchtower 3:16

  Next video release from WBTS will be their version of The Passion of the Christ, with Justin Bieber as Jesus.

  
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  43

  Does Jehovah hate beards?

  by brotherunsure in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  has the watchtower ever rationalized their obsession with depilation or claimed there was a biblical basis for banning beards, or is it simply because jehovah's corporation/faithful and discrete slave says so?.

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  WontLeave

  They banned them in the hippy days

  Well, they last spoke out against them in the hippie days. There are more recent anecdotal examples given of people who shaved as they became "more spiritual", but nothing that comes right out and condemns beards in the last few decades. Of course, you'll still get dragged into the back room for wearing one. Even before hippies, in w8/15/1954 a (likely contrived) Question From Readers was: The traditional picture of Jesus shows him with long hair and beard, but the Watch Tower publications illustrate him as beardless and with short hair. Which is correct?

  The answer was a resounding "clean shaved", with all kinds of historical exhibits presented as evidence. Obviously, they had already decided they didn't like beards and had gone on a mission to dig up any proof - no matter how ridiculous and unscriptural. Unfortunately, the CD-ROM doesn't go back far enough to find more damning and embarrassing stuff (by design), so that's the earliest example I can find.

  The 1968 article is the newest "light" on the subject and since the Society hasn't reversed its decision, it still stands. Interestingly, this article excerpt is more recent (although now considered "old light"): The heart, nevertheless, is intricately connected with the brain by the nervous system and is well supplied with sensory nerve endings. The sensations of the heart are recorded on the brain. It is here that the heart brings to bear on the mind its desires and its affections in arriving at conclusions having to do with motivations. In reverse flow, the mind feeds the heart with interpretations of the impulses from the senses and with conclusions reached that are based on the knowledge it has received, either at the moment or from the memory. There is a close interrelationship between the heart and the mind, but they are two different faculties, centering in different locations. The heart is a marvelously designed muscular pump, but, more significantly, our emotional and motivating capacities are built within it. Love, hate, desire (good and bad), preference for one thing over another, ambition, fear—in effect, all that serves to motivate us in relationship to our affections and desires springs from the heart. - w3/1/1971 p.134 #7
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  43

  Does Jehovah hate beards?

  by brotherunsure in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  has the watchtower ever rationalized their obsession with depilation or claimed there was a biblical basis for banning beards, or is it simply because jehovah's corporation/faithful and discrete slave says so?.

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  WontLeave

  Even with a beard, Salma Hayek is gorgeous. It takes more than hair (unibrow in Frida or beard in Cirque du Freak) to cover that kind of beauty.

  The beard thing has been a source of contention for many male JWs for years. The GB are old, closed-minded, cantankerous, and self-appointed prophets. The more people argue against them, the deeper they dig in their heels. Beards haven't been an issue for 20 years, in American society, yet because of some WT article from 1968, the average JW believes anyone with a beard will be perceived as a hippie. The anti-beard thing has become as part of JW life as 1914, the Governing Body, and listening to Kingdom Melodies whenever other JWs are in your car. It and many other JW beliefs are simply "understood" as part of the indoctrination process.

  Many JW teachings can't be explained or demonstrated from Scripture, so some vague reference is made to a totally unrelated Bible verse as proof, then a WT article is shoved at you, as if anyone should give a pile of dingo's kidneys what the WT says. The same is done on the subject of oral sex with a spouse. 20 paragraphs are written about the evils of this "disgusting" activity (to incite a blind emotional response) and some scriptures about homosexuality and brothels are invoked. I'm not sure if my wife is supposed to be my gay lover or a hooker. But I digress... The articles are written in a way that sound like they're merely pointing out some pertinent Bible teachings, but the ultimate choice is yours. This is JW code, so they can't be openly accused of manipulating people. They know how the congregation elders are going to interpret the 'instruction' in those articles.

  The militant attitude of the elders is probably part of their training and definitely part of their pact with the Society. I believe the agreement is unspoken, while eluded to, that elders exist to make sure the WTBTS is unquestioningly obeyed. They're the gestapo to the regime. Their position as congregation overlords is contingent on hard-line party adherence. These losers in cheap suits have nothing else going on in their lives and their fragile egos lust for some sort of recognition. Just like Nazis and Al Qaeda look for illiterate, poor, ignorant people with a chip on their shoulders to recruit; the quality of JW elders has gone completely down the toilet.

  So, we have statements like "he broke his pipe and lighter along with his crucifix, destroyed his pornographic films, and shaved off his beard" (w5/1/1995), which just expect you to believe smoking, idolatry, pornography, and beards are all equivalent. The expectation is for the reader to connect the dots in his/her own head, so as to absolve the Society from any obvious wrongdoing. This is how the doctrines keep slithering out of any trouble in the courts; as it takes years of indoctrination and subtle nudges for a JW to form this mentality. It's nothing overt or sudden that can be demonstrated in a courtroom within reasonable time constrains. This is why it takes a year or years to baptize a new recruit: Brainwashing someone who isn't chained up in a cell is hard! It's a lot easier to do on your kids, whom you have from the time they're born. Interestingly, they use the account of Philip and the Ethiopian to establish "you can't understand the Bible without us", but the Ethiopian was baptized immediately, not after months or years of indoctrination.
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  81

  A roaring current of change.... Is The Watchtower in the process of a major overhaul of their religion?

  by koolaid-man in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  a roaring current of change..... what is going on at the world headquarters of jehovah's witnesses?

  in the last couple of years unprecedented changes in policy, procedure, and doctrine have been coming forth in rapid fire sequence.

  this uninterrupted episode of new information is beginning to backfire for the rank and file witnesses.

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  WontLeave

  JWs have resorted to ghetto combing. Let's face it; if you're thinking about joining a new religion you've never really heard much about, you're going to check it out. Anyone with Internet access or who isn't ridiculously lazy will really give it a lot of thought before making any commitments. When I was still preaching, I prided myself on having several studies with intelligent people, when the precious few who could muster a study had them with people in styrofoam helmets and shut-ins who just wanted some company. I hated going to other people's studies, because it was embarrassing and uncomfortable.

  The current JWs can't establish their beliefs except from JW literature that nobody cares about. They're all out looking for someone totally ignorant about the Bible to 'impress' with things like Psalm 83:18 or Rom 6:23. Then they're caught by surprise when someone hands them their NIV, because they don't realize "Jehovah" isn't in Psalm 83:18 in the NIV. They don't know anything about any translation other than the NWT and a few cheesy parlor tricks with the KJV. They know nothing about JW history, early Christian history, the Inquisitions, the Reformation, or what any denomination teaches - except for JWs and whatever they came from (and often not much about that).

  They believe stupid things like "On Jeopardy, Alex Trebek said the NWT is the most accurate." Then, when they're summarily dismissed by someone with an education or intelligence, they label that person a goat or Wiccan, which they believe means "Devil worshiper". From looking at old literature, it was at one time intended for an intelligent, educated, Bible-savvy audience; anymore, it's for retards and ignoramuses. It's dumbed down to a grade-school reading level and relies heavily on the reader's ignorance. It's come to the point where anyone with any brains at all is forced into "apostasy" or pulling some 1984, self-hypnosis brainwashing stunt.

  The quality of JWs is getting lower and lower, along with their incomes. Unless the Watchtower can figure some way to accept food stamps, I don't know where the money is going to be coming from. The only JWs I know who have any intelligence or income to speak of are long-timers. They come from a kinder and gentler organization and I don't believe most even realize what will happen to them if they are caught saying something that doesn't fit this month's WT dogma. They are so blasé about the religion, most probably aren't paying much attention, feeling they already know all about it and are just going through the motions. I doubt most born-ins and old-timers really see the power grab trend of the GB, because if they're probably so bored they're not paying attention.

  Since I became aware of the problems, I pay much more attention at the meetings, because they piss me off. No, I'm not saying "amen" to a prayer thanking the Creator of the Universe for a song book that sucks. When someone comes right out in a comment or talk saying the Watchtower is "from God" or that the GB is inspired - recently happened and I was mortified - I just cringe. Nobody else there notices, even though they all seem to be looking at the platform. Are they listening to the same thing I am? Are they listening at all? If a guy got up there and just started reading the phone book, would anyone notice? No wonder they always clap the same, no matter the quality of the public talk: They didn't hear a word of it.
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  35

  What do you think 2012 Convention theme will be?

  by Iamallcool in

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  WontLeave

  Welcome to the 2012 "We're Your Christ, Now" district convention of Jehovah's Witnesses
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  67

  About the Adam and Eve time gap....

  by Lozhasleft in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  what's got me a bit befuddled is this.... when eve was created she was physically perfect right?

  and apparently god blessed them which counted as a marriage.

  so....that means that satan's deception of eve must have been almost immediate?....because being perfect she would have conceived virtually straight away, surely?

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  WontLeave

  In my mind, the perfect woman is a BJ addict. (Just had to throw that in there)

  Genesis chapter 5 indicates the guys were waiting until they were pretty along in years before they started having kids. Granted, Adam's age with his first kids isn't discussed, but his 3rd son, Seth, was born when Adam was 105. The Scriptures remain silent on the whys of the waits, but the youngest mentioned are Mahalalel and Enoch at 65.

  It does seem like the girls are maturing younger now than when I was a kid. Maybe it's been gradual, since the beginning, and women were 60+ before they hit puberty.