Posts by WontLeave

6

Share in the final witness NOW! the Watchtower

by Aussie Oz in

wt 1950 1/15.

share in the glorious treasure of giving the final witness now, that you may feed on the fruits of victory.

the time is shorteven satan knows that!

WontLeave

Nearly all those who read and understood this paragraph are now dead

Exactly. Cool isn't it? Only "apostates" ever know about stuff like this. A JW still in after 1975 is probably braindead and never going anywhere, no matter what. It won't be long before that articles is "old light" and JWs won't be permitted to read it, because it'll be labelled apostate literature, like all the other stuff that isn't on the CD-ROM. Even if a JW encounters excerpts compiled from the CD-ROM, if they reflect poorly on the organization, they'll be considered apostate literature. Same goes for a list of scriptures that damn the Society. I should work on a paper that is nothing but Watchtower excerpts juxtaposed with scriptures, with absolutely no commentary. I'll bet it would be considered apostate literature, only containing Watchtowers and Bible verses.

93

How evangelicals and Witnesses are alike

by jgnat in

both believe in the inerrancy of the bible (psalms 12:6, 119:89, proverbs 30:5-6, 2 timothy 3:16-17, 2 peter 1:20-21, rev 22:18-19) and in their absolute correct interpretation.both believe that the other is apostate (2 thessalonians 2:3-4).both believe that the others doctrine is influenced by the devil (genesis 3:1-15, john 8:44).both believe the other is condemned for their false beliefs (2 peter 2:1-3, 1 timothy 4:1-3, 2 timothy 2:16-19, hebrews 6:4-8).neither would darken the door of the others sanctuary, for fear of contamination.both would avoid casual association (proverbs 13:20, 1 corinthians 5:11, 15:33), and certainly would not marry the other (2 corinthians 6:14).both believe that armageddon is imminent and look forward to the purified world afterwards.both consider that the highest form of charity is to convert another.

practical works like feeding the poor are considered inferior.more?

can we make it a dozen (a more perfect number)?.

WontLeave

Typical of JWs, you think if you refute modalism that you are refuting trinitarianism

Who said anything about modalism, except among the list of things I allowed you to prove from the verses you just invoked to establish your "diety of Christ" statement? I am really starting to realize you're mentally unstable. At least I'm not going to tell you you're damned to Hell for your inability to function on a rational level.

bring up a verse to contradict another verse

If you'd read my post I keep mentioning to you, I addressed this, as well. But you aren't interested in the actual topic at hand. You're not listening; you're just waiting for your turn to rant again. Each time I post something to you, it's like hitting a hornets' nest with a stick. A whole lot of racket comes out, but nothing that will do anybody any good. I'll bet I could just respond with a blank post and you'd run off on another tangent, with a list of unrelated scriptures again. I could have you chasing your tail all day, because you've completely slipped off your cracker.

93

How evangelicals and Witnesses are alike

by jgnat in

both believe in the inerrancy of the bible (psalms 12:6, 119:89, proverbs 30:5-6, 2 timothy 3:16-17, 2 peter 1:20-21, rev 22:18-19) and in their absolute correct interpretation.both believe that the other is apostate (2 thessalonians 2:3-4).both believe that the others doctrine is influenced by the devil (genesis 3:1-15, john 8:44).both believe the other is condemned for their false beliefs (2 peter 2:1-3, 1 timothy 4:1-3, 2 timothy 2:16-19, hebrews 6:4-8).neither would darken the door of the others sanctuary, for fear of contamination.both would avoid casual association (proverbs 13:20, 1 corinthians 5:11, 15:33), and certainly would not marry the other (2 corinthians 6:14).both believe that armageddon is imminent and look forward to the purified world afterwards.both consider that the highest form of charity is to convert another.

practical works like feeding the poor are considered inferior.more?

can we make it a dozen (a more perfect number)?.

WontLeave

Once again, you've stapled scriptures to your rant that in no way support your statement. Here are all of them, which you cite for

the Deity of Christ is salvific

and gave these verses as evidence (all references are NIV, because it's the default on biblegateway.com):

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. - John 3:16

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever - John 14:6

Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved. - Acts 4:12

If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. - Rom 10:9-10

And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. - 1John 5:11-13

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse! Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ. - Gal 1:6-10

For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. - 2Cor 11:4

Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. - Jude 3

Plese show me where Christ=YHWH (which is the only definition of Christ's diety you'll accept as "truly Christian"), Trinity, Oneness, Modalism - whatever you want to prove - is indicated in any (much less all) of these passages. I don't deny Jesus' Heavenly form is divine. If you had ever read the post I have pointed you toward numerous times, you'd understand this. But your straw men are more convenient, so you just type "JW/GB" as if they're representative of my beliefs or anyone's here, for that matter. You're arguing with a person who only exists in your head, over an ideal that only exists in your head, using evidence that only exists in your head. I'm starting to doubt your sanity and my own for engaging with you.

If anything, these verses do far more damage to your delusional theory than good.

he gave his one and only Son

I will ask the Father

God raised him from the dead

God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son

I use Galatians and 2Corinthians to disprove the Trinity, because most people know the apostles did not preach it, since the doctrine didn't exist then. But you refuse to admit or comprehend this established fact and insist your delusion be shared. No wonder you invoke the Hellfire doctrine so much. You can't establish your false claim with evidence, so you're resorting to threats. Well, I know your threats are as empty as your evidence and your beliefs, so I can just as easily ignore them, too.

93

How evangelicals and Witnesses are alike

by jgnat in

both believe in the inerrancy of the bible (psalms 12:6, 119:89, proverbs 30:5-6, 2 timothy 3:16-17, 2 peter 1:20-21, rev 22:18-19) and in their absolute correct interpretation.both believe that the other is apostate (2 thessalonians 2:3-4).both believe that the others doctrine is influenced by the devil (genesis 3:1-15, john 8:44).both believe the other is condemned for their false beliefs (2 peter 2:1-3, 1 timothy 4:1-3, 2 timothy 2:16-19, hebrews 6:4-8).neither would darken the door of the others sanctuary, for fear of contamination.both would avoid casual association (proverbs 13:20, 1 corinthians 5:11, 15:33), and certainly would not marry the other (2 corinthians 6:14).both believe that armageddon is imminent and look forward to the purified world afterwards.both consider that the highest form of charity is to convert another.

practical works like feeding the poor are considered inferior.more?

can we make it a dozen (a more perfect number)?.

WontLeave

I have the ISBE. Do you?

It's available online, in its entirety. Where do you think I got the excerpts? I don't use second-hand evidence. That leads to embarrassment. I'm sure they make a wonderful case for the Trinity. I did mention it's a trinitarian source.

Your idea the Trinity is "salvific" is ridiculous, is my point. It was virtually unheard of until the 4th Century before the Catholic Magesterium was formed and the Inquisitions started forcing it upon the people. The laity didn't have access to the Bible for the majority of Christian history (first by design, then from lack of availability or literacy) and only had the Church to tell them what to believe, so they had no first-hand knowledge. Add to that the Trinity isn't stated in Scripture, but is a "revealed doctrine" which must come from the Church. OT prophets were in direct communication with God, but never mentioned a trinity. The vast majority of Trinity "proof texts" are from the NT and still nothing overt.

The long and short of it all is faith in the Trinity isn't faith in the Bible, but faith in church doctrine. Are there people who insist they see it all over the Bible? Sure. There are also conspiracy theorists who see every helicopter in the sky as following them. When someone has been convinced if they don't see the Trinity in Scripture then they're going to be tortured for eternity in Hell, I'm confident many will gush about the splendor of the Emperor's new clothes.

93

How evangelicals and Witnesses are alike

by jgnat in

both believe in the inerrancy of the bible (psalms 12:6, 119:89, proverbs 30:5-6, 2 timothy 3:16-17, 2 peter 1:20-21, rev 22:18-19) and in their absolute correct interpretation.both believe that the other is apostate (2 thessalonians 2:3-4).both believe that the others doctrine is influenced by the devil (genesis 3:1-15, john 8:44).both believe the other is condemned for their false beliefs (2 peter 2:1-3, 1 timothy 4:1-3, 2 timothy 2:16-19, hebrews 6:4-8).neither would darken the door of the others sanctuary, for fear of contamination.both would avoid casual association (proverbs 13:20, 1 corinthians 5:11, 15:33), and certainly would not marry the other (2 corinthians 6:14).both believe that armageddon is imminent and look forward to the purified world afterwards.both consider that the highest form of charity is to convert another.

practical works like feeding the poor are considered inferior.more?

can we make it a dozen (a more perfect number)?.

WontLeave

Whatever you need to tell yourself. Here are some things to chew on (all excerpts from International Standard Bible Encyclopedia):

As the doctrine of the Trinity is indiscoverable by reason, so it is incapable of proof from reason.

In point of fact, the doctrine of the Trinity is purely a revealed doctrine. That is to say, it embodies a truth which has never been discovered, and is indiscoverable, by natural reason. With all his searching, man has not been able to find out for himself the deepest things of God. Accordingly, ethnic thought has never attained a Trinitarian conception of God, nor does any ethnic religion present in its representations of the divine being any analogy to the doctrine of the Trinity.

Whether there really exist traces of the idea of the Trinity in the Old Testament, however, is a nice question. Certainly we cannot speak broadly of the revelation of the doctrine of the Trinity in the Old Testament. It is a plain matter of fact that none who have depended on the revelation embodied in the Old Testament alone have ever attained to the doctrine of the Trinity. It is another question, however, whether there may not exist in the pages of the Old Testament turns of expression or records of occurrences in which one already acquainted with the doctrine of the Trinity may fairly see indications of an underlying implication of it.

In the nature of the case the formulated doctrine was of slow attainment. The influence of inherited conceptions and of current philosophies inevitably showed itself in the efforts to construe to the intellect the immanent faith of Christians. In the 2nd century the dominant neo-Stoic and neo-Platonic ideas deflected Christian thought into subordinationist channels, and produced what is known as the Logos-Christology, which looks upon the Son as a prolation of Deity reduced to such dimensions as comported with relations with a world of time and space; meanwhile, to a great extent, the Spirit was neglected altogether. A reaction which, under the name of Monarchianism, identified the Father, Son, and Spirit so completely that they were thought of only as different aspects or different moments in the life of the one Divine Person, called now Father, now Son, now Spirit, as His several activities came successively into view, almost succeeded in establishing itself in the 3rd century as the doctrine of the church at large. In the conflict between these two opposite tendencies the church gradually found its way, under the guidance of the Baptismal Formula elaborated into a "Rule of Faith," to a better and more well-balanced conception, until a real doctrine of the Trinity at length came to expression, particularly in the West, through the brilliant dialectic of Tertullian. It was thus ready at hand, when, in the early years of the 4th century, the Logos-Christology, in opposition to dominant Sabellian tendencies, ran to seed in what is known as Arianism, to which the Son was a creature, though exalted above all other creatures as their Creator and Lord; and the church was thus prepared to assert its settled faith in a Triune God, one in being, but in whose unity there subsisted three consubstantial Persons.

And this is a very Trinitarian source. Even if the Trinity were true (which it clearly isn't, to me) what kind of God would require a belief that makes no sense, was the source of bitter arguments between good-heared Christians, isn't actually stated in the NT, and nonexistent in the OT (unless you're already indoctrinated to see it everywhere) be a prerequisite to avoid eternal torture? Your view of God is disgusting and offensive. You paint a God as cruel and petty as Allah of the Qur'an. I would hate to be in your shoes when you have to answer for your slander and blasphemy.

93

How evangelicals and Witnesses are alike

by jgnat in

both believe in the inerrancy of the bible (psalms 12:6, 119:89, proverbs 30:5-6, 2 timothy 3:16-17, 2 peter 1:20-21, rev 22:18-19) and in their absolute correct interpretation.both believe that the other is apostate (2 thessalonians 2:3-4).both believe that the others doctrine is influenced by the devil (genesis 3:1-15, john 8:44).both believe the other is condemned for their false beliefs (2 peter 2:1-3, 1 timothy 4:1-3, 2 timothy 2:16-19, hebrews 6:4-8).neither would darken the door of the others sanctuary, for fear of contamination.both would avoid casual association (proverbs 13:20, 1 corinthians 5:11, 15:33), and certainly would not marry the other (2 corinthians 6:14).both believe that armageddon is imminent and look forward to the purified world afterwards.both consider that the highest form of charity is to convert another.

practical works like feeding the poor are considered inferior.more?

can we make it a dozen (a more perfect number)?.

WontLeave

The difference is, this is how the Trinity was established as accepted doctrine. Your refusal to accept this fact in light of historical evidence doesn't change that reality. The pictures I cited are pertient to this matter and not "ad hominem". You sure you know what that means?

The formulation 'one God in three persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. - The New Catholic Encyclopedia 1967

93

How evangelicals and Witnesses are alike

by jgnat in

both believe in the inerrancy of the bible (psalms 12:6, 119:89, proverbs 30:5-6, 2 timothy 3:16-17, 2 peter 1:20-21, rev 22:18-19) and in their absolute correct interpretation.both believe that the other is apostate (2 thessalonians 2:3-4).both believe that the others doctrine is influenced by the devil (genesis 3:1-15, john 8:44).both believe the other is condemned for their false beliefs (2 peter 2:1-3, 1 timothy 4:1-3, 2 timothy 2:16-19, hebrews 6:4-8).neither would darken the door of the others sanctuary, for fear of contamination.both would avoid casual association (proverbs 13:20, 1 corinthians 5:11, 15:33), and certainly would not marry the other (2 corinthians 6:14).both believe that armageddon is imminent and look forward to the purified world afterwards.both consider that the highest form of charity is to convert another.

practical works like feeding the poor are considered inferior.more?

can we make it a dozen (a more perfect number)?.

WontLeave

believers are free, not slaves. Don't confuse controlling cults with Christianity.

So glad you Trinitarians don't have to resort to cult tactics like this:

22

2nd attempt - Big AHA moment for me !

by Lozhasleft in

jw
friends

wontleave posted this on another thread:.

jesus is truth and when an organization tells you they're "truth", they're calling christ a liar unless they are an exact representation of him.. wow !!!!

of course...how could i have never noted this???

WontLeave

Our faith is based on Sola Scripture (sic)

You've lost your mind, if you think your man-made dogmas fit the definition of sola scriptura. All you do is quote creeds and church doctrine, while arbitrarily stapling unrelated Bible verses to it for "proof". You're a charlatan and your beliefs are shams. I've pointed out over and over how your cited verses don't say anything about what you're blathering on about.

You think this is our first rodeo? I was on to that trick the first time I saw the Watchtower bashing oral sex by shoehorning in some scriptures about brothels and homosexuality. So, is my wife supposed to be my gay lover or a whore? Just because you invoke a verse from the Bible doesn't make what you're saying true. The Devil did a lot better appying Scripture to Jesus and he was rebuked for it.

22

2nd attempt - Big AHA moment for me !

by Lozhasleft in

jw
friends

wontleave posted this on another thread:.

jesus is truth and when an organization tells you they're "truth", they're calling christ a liar unless they are an exact representation of him.. wow !!!!

of course...how could i have never noted this???

WontLeave

I did a word search on the CD-ROM for "in the truth". Some were Jesus talking about Satan not remaining "in the truth" and some could be claimed to be referring to Bible truth. These are specifically and obviously talking about the JW organization and just from the last 2 years:

In many of our congregations, there is a high percentage of sisters, at times up to 70 percent. Most of them are new in the truth - w4/15/2009 p22

Only when I got to know Jehovah better and developed a personal relationship with him did I really become involved in the truth. - w9/15/2009 p4

Almost all of Brother Martínez’ family who are in the truth - w9/15/2009 p32

I felt as if something inside of me died. I thought my friend was firmly grounded in the truth - w10/15/2009 p20

Think back on your years in the truth. - w6/15/2008 p24

It’s like coming in the truth all over again. - w3/15/2008 p20

Even though I was raised in the truth - w5/15/2008 p15

Our parents raised us in a way that made being in the truth enjoyable - w8/1/2008 (the only use in a "public" WT where "in the truth" is used specifically to refer to the JW organization)

I'm sure there are many, many more examples if one was to search for "the truth", but there were so many hits it would take forever to go through them all to look for examples of pounding the drum that the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society or Jehovah's Witnesses is "the truth". If you've read 1984, you understand how controlling language controls thought. The "pure language" of Jehovah's Witnesses is just cult propaganda to cause the rank and file to brainwash each other and themselves.

43

I don't get this...Jesus' birth and death

by poopsiecakes in

forgive me if this topic has been raised before - and i'm still working it out in my head so bear with me.... conventional religions, including jw's, teach that jesus was 30 when he was baptized and began his ministry which lasted 3 years.

the year of jesus' death is said to be ad 33, which would make him 33. and that's what i've always understood.... even the wt of april 2011 says that according to 'modern calculations' the year of his birth is thought to be 2 bc and wikipedia says possibly as far back as 7 bc.

i've never heard anyone argue the fact that there's no way these dates add up.

WontLeave

Larsinger vs. Eggnog

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gqw1FI1hfJA