Posts by WontLeave

26

Dumb illustration

by MrFreeze in

jw
friends

14 years ago

jw's have the tendency to come up with the worst illustrations.

it boggles my mind sometimes.

here's one someone gave me about new light.. when confronted with the fact that since certain teachings change, the jw's never had the truth.

14 years ago

WontLeave 14 years ago

In my experience, "New Light" tm is more like them talking about this house:

and saying "This house is blue!" to thunderous applause. The followers refuse to even glance at the house for fear they may show lack of faith in the Governing Body and just go by what they were told the color of the house is. Then they remark "Oh, I'm so glad the 'wise slave' told us the house is blue. That was the best convention ever. It was so faith-strengthening and spiritually-energizing. I'm going to auxiliary pioneer this month and tell everybody about how blue the house is."

Then, a few years later, still talking about this house,

they never make mention to having ever said the house was blue and confidently print a scholarly article - chock full of some-names-have-been-changed experiences and excerpts from obscure books by house experts, entitled "This house is green!" and people all make grand comments how the 'faithful slave' has given us this spiritual banquet through the pages of the Watchtower - God's mouthpiece.

A few years later, when several people have left because they discovered the house and what color is really is, there's a scathing "special talk" given all over the country about loyalty to "Jehovah" and how only his enlightened people know this house:

is yellow. A special Awake! is printed in mass quantities and a huge campaign is encouraged. Witnesses take vacation time off from work to tell everyone in the community about the yellowness of the house.

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10

Was the GB scared by pew research on religion? (statistics)

by JonathanH in

jw
friends

14 years ago

looking at pew research data on jws (link below if you want to check it out, it's interesting to compare stats.

), you have to wonder if the gb has seen them and what they think about them.

it would seem to me examining the statistics that there are far more witnesses on the inside that don't really believe it is the "truth" than many on the inside would assume.

14 years ago

WontLeave 14 years ago

African Americans lag behind whites in 2000 by nearly a factor of two. However it is less frequently observed that whites lag behind Asians by nearly as large a ratio. The group with the least education are not the African Americans, but the American Indians, Hispanic or Latino - wikipedia "Education outcomes in the United States by race and other classifications"

Status and Trends in the Education of Racial and Ethnic Groups (Source: United States Department of Education - 2008)

Race	Associates Degree	Bachelor's Degree	Master's Degree	First Professional Degree
Whites	9.3%	21.1%	8.4%	3.1 %
Blacks	8.9%	13.6%	4.9%	1.3 %
Hispanics	3.6%	4.8%	1.4%	0.2%
Asians	6.9%	31.6%	14.0%	6.4%
American Indians/Alaska Natives	3.5%	4.6%	1.5%	0.3%

I'm not sure what part there's a problem with. Are you saying the ghettos and barrios have the same level of education and quality of life as gated communities? I know from experience where JWs would rather preach, because educated people shut them down. They barely even try and go into the affluent neighborhoods with a defeatist attitude, knowing nobody's going to listen to them. Of course, they have all kinds of excuses "easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle...", "they have their 'paradise' now", "God chose the foolish things of the world", etc. I always got a great response in nicer neighborhoods and people would remark I'm the first person to knock on their door with religion that wasn't a weirdo.

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2

Similarities Between Harold Camping's Group and Witnesses?

by stuckinamovement in

jw
friends

14 years ago

after reading this news article http://www.npr.org/2011/05/07/136053462/is-the-end-nigh-well-know-soon-enough .

i was struck by how similar the two groups are.

i was curous if anyone has published or posted a detailed comparison of the two groups?.

14 years ago

WontLeave 14 years ago

Both feel that they have a lifesaving message.

How? His church believes in predestination, so whatever God has decided is your destiny, you're stuck with it. There is no such thing as repentance when you're dealing with predestination. The big ad campaign is a way to get donations and nothing else. They have no message; just some vague reference to a date there's nothing anyone can do anything about.

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10

Was the GB scared by pew research on religion? (statistics)

by JonathanH in

jw
friends

14 years ago

looking at pew research data on jws (link below if you want to check it out, it's interesting to compare stats.

), you have to wonder if the gb has seen them and what they think about them.

it would seem to me examining the statistics that there are far more witnesses on the inside that don't really believe it is the "truth" than many on the inside would assume.

14 years ago

WontLeave 14 years ago

I don't know if I'd put too much stock in that poll. They have 10% as republicans and 15% as democrats. That's 25% of the people they identified as JWs as being affiliated with a political party. Among the people who claim government is the 7-headed, 10-horned wild beast of Revelation, it's odd to see 47% want more of it and 38% want it to legislate morality. It's also interesting to see in an organization of people who are constantly told God doesn't care about them as individuals, but only about his "organization", 63% say they are having their prayers answered.

If you look at this page of the site:

http://religions.pewforum.org/pdf/report2religious-landscape-study-topline.pdf

and search along it for "Jehovah" other interesting tidbits are:

How certain are you about this belief? 93% (highest of all religions polled)

Do you believe in life after death? 42% yes, 45% no

Do you think there is a heaven, where people who have led good lives are eternally rewarded? 46% yes, 42% no

would you say that the Bible is to be taken literally, word for word? 48% yes, 40% no

Miracles still occur today as in ancient times? 15% completely agree, 15% mostly agree

My religion is the one, true faith leading to eternal life 80% yes (highest of all religions polled)

There is only ONE true way to interpret the teachings of my religion 77% (highest of all religions polled)

receive a definite answer to a specific prayer request? 37% at least once a week (highest of any religion polled)

Tied with black churches for highest disproportion of women

All in all, are you satisfied or dissatisfied with the way things are going in your personal life? 83% (second lowest)

Your standard of living – what you can buy or do 32% very satisfied (second lowest), very dissatisfied 11% (second highest)

Your family life 69% very dissatisfied (second lowest), somewhat + very dissatisfied 9% (highest)

Your personal safety from things like crime and terrorism? 18% very satisfied (lowest), 32% very dissatisfied (highest)

Would you say you follow what’s going on in government and public affairs? 29% most of the time (lowest), 27% hardly at all (highest by a factor of 3)

When you think about government and public affairs, which of the following factors most influences your thinking? 13% personal experience (lowest by far), 10% what you have seen in the media (lowest), 60% your religious beliefs (highest by a vast margin)

When it comes to questions of right and wrong, which of the following do you look to most for guidance? 73% religious teachings and beliefs (highest by far), 19% practical experience and common sense (lowest by far), 1% scientific information (lowest)

All said, it seems Jehovah's Witnesses share most of the same demographics as "Traditionally Black Churches". I guess their ghetto combing is paying off. A glance at the race statistics indicates their main inroads are being made in the ghettos and barrios; with the same people who traditionally have the least education and lowest quality of life.

It also seems like a lot of JWs really don't know their doctrine (no newsflash here), because they're spit about down the middle on the yes/no doctrinal questions. For people who go around with the sole purpose of telling others they are wrong about religion, you'd think they'd have some idea what they're talking about. But I know from experience that's not even close to the reality.

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40

How Would You Recommend Getting Rid Of Jehovah's Witnesses?

by minimus in

jw
friends

14 years ago

....at your door?.

my gf mistakenly took brochures/pamphlets and now they drop things in the doorway every week (at least).. any suggestions?

?.

11 years ago

WontLeave 14 years ago

The best way I've found to get rid of Jehovah's Witnesses is to engage them in conversation, refuse to accept literature (this is key), get a Bible and start correcting them from it whenever they say something unscriptural.

Once they realize you're not going to bump their magazine numbers and that you're not a fish in a barrel, they leave. Sure, they'll call you a "goat", "opposer", "apostate" or whatever they have to in order to lick the wounds of their fragile little egos when they get back to the car, but they won't come back.

JWs are not preachers, they're not teachers, they're not Bible scholars; they're pack mules for other people's literature. They aren't qualified to have a Bible discussion and - on some level - they know this. I wish they would stay and chat, but they won't. They cut the visit short and go look for someone who's not interested. At least that person will accept a magazine just to get rid of them, then go throw it away.

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56

Is the Governing Body Guilty or not guilty of 1975 speculations going too far?

by Terry in

14 years ago

the most disengenuous aspect of "official" pronouncements from the society can be identified.. it is in the positioning of the speaker/writer as a passive onlooker commenting on exterior happenings.. this bystander mode is clever by half.. why?

it spoon feeds information without taking any active personal responsibility.. sort of an "oh gee, wow--look at all this going on" stance, while taking a stand-offish tone, is printed in the official magazines and books approved for publication by the governing body as mouthpiece of jehovah.. think about that.

it is insidious incitement without responsibility.. the person (likely fred franz) who crafted these bulletins had gone through several previous incidents of failure and disappointment and was well aware of the effect of any speculations upon jehovah's witnesses in the past.. this makes what was printed all the more calculated and irresponsible in the extreme.. let us parse the language printed by the watchtower society with careful attention to what is said and left unsaid.. w68 8/15 p. 494 why are you looking forward to 1975?.

14 years ago

WontLeave 14 years ago

it doesn't matter as they were just imperfect men doing their best!

I am so sick of their claims of "We're just imperfect men doing our best." The book study starts a new book this week and here's an excerpt:

When the apostles gathered on the Mount of Olives, they had their last meeting with Jesus on earth. Eagerly, they asked: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” (Acts 1:6) In this one question, the apostles revealed two faulty ideas that they were entertaining. First, they assumed that God’s Kingdom would be restored to fleshly Israel. Second, they expected the promised Kingdom to begin its rule right away, “at this time.”

...To this day, if Christians become unduly concerned about the timing of the end of this system of things, they are, in effect, worrying about what does not belong to them.

Still, we should be careful not to look down on Jesus’ apostles, who were men of great faith. They humbly accepted correction. What is more, although their question sprang from faulty thinking, it also revealed a good attitude. Jesus had repeatedly urged his followers: “Keep on the watch.”

They actually compare a question the apostles asked Jesus to mass-printing a years-long series of articles and inciting a preaching campaign based on them. They insidiously set up the apostles as equivalents of themselves: While being imperfect, they had the best of intentions. The middle excerpt is probably one of the most amazing examples of irony I've ever seen. The fact they acknowledge this whole Bible account where Jesus tells the apostles it's improper to even speculate about the time the end will be should damn them even further, in the mind of anyone who actually has it switched on.

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7

Wonder what will happen?

by umadevi in

14 years ago

i wonder what will happen if i just call one of the "sisters" and say that i don't want to attend meetings anymore?

any ideas anyone?.

14 years ago

WontLeave 14 years ago

I wouldn't bother saying anything. If you don't want to go, don't go. I just looked over the book that's starting this week and in the first 2 chapters, it's pissed me off 4 times. I probably won't be attending meetings for a while, because I refuse to be around the idolatry. But, if I decide to show up, I will. When and if I go to a meeting is my decision and likewise should be for anyone. If people guilt trip you about how they "missed you", give them your number and tell them they're welcome to call if they really do. In reality, most JW relationships are fake and based solely on other people agreeing with everything they believe and seldom have anything to do with any personal connection. If that's all the relationship consists of, then why give them any sense of entitlement to what's going on in your mind and heart?

I understand the importance "the organization" is given as a JW. We are pressured to feel like we owe something to other Witnesses, elders, and the Society. They equate "the organization" with Jehovah, so if we snub the group, we're brainwashed to believe we're snubbing God himself. I doubt the apostles checked in with the Pharisees and kept them up to date on their comings and goings, so I treat my congregation pretty much the same way.

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93

How evangelicals and Witnesses are alike

by jgnat in

14 years ago

both believe in the inerrancy of the bible (psalms 12:6, 119:89, proverbs 30:5-6, 2 timothy 3:16-17, 2 peter 1:20-21, rev 22:18-19) and in their absolute correct interpretation.both believe that the other is apostate (2 thessalonians 2:3-4).both believe that the others doctrine is influenced by the devil (genesis 3:1-15, john 8:44).both believe the other is condemned for their false beliefs (2 peter 2:1-3, 1 timothy 4:1-3, 2 timothy 2:16-19, hebrews 6:4-8).neither would darken the door of the others sanctuary, for fear of contamination.both would avoid casual association (proverbs 13:20, 1 corinthians 5:11, 15:33), and certainly would not marry the other (2 corinthians 6:14).both believe that armageddon is imminent and look forward to the purified world afterwards.both consider that the highest form of charity is to convert another.

practical works like feeding the poor are considered inferior.more?

can we make it a dozen (a more perfect number)?.

14 years ago

WontLeave 14 years ago

Has it occurred to anyone else here that godrulz is exactly the caricature of everything JWs claim "Christendom" is? I'm starting to believe he reeks of a false-flag attack. Nobody is this elusive, accusative, threatening, arrogant, irritating, blind, and delusional; are they? This guy comes in here and, under the guise of trying to save all our souls, has many people on this forum defending the very reasons most here initially had any interest in JWs, in the first place. It's like he pretends to be trying to push everybody here in one direction, but in reality he's got us pulling the other way, because his references are vague, his personality is grating, his words are obnoxious and condescending, and his doctrine is stereotypically dogmatic. Everything he is making a grand show of attempting is having the opposite effect. I call shenanigans on falsegodrulz, as a WT troll, using all the tactics they claim "the churches" use, which any JW or ex-JW would be very keenly aware of, in an attempt to herd us into defending WT doctrine.

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277

What say you Christians ???

by wobble in

14 years ago

it seems to me that most, if not all christians are really hung up on sin and redemption from sin and how naturally evil we all are.. my question, and observation is this : i had nothing to do with whatever you say adam and eve did wrong, i have always, throughout my life, treated whoever i came into contact with compassion, respect and love.. i have lived by the golden rule.. not many people, hand on heart, can say that, i can.. so, is your god going to judge me for the "sin" of some mythical forebears of mine ?

is he going to say that , because i did not believe in him, i willl be judged adversely, even though i lived by the precepts he is supposed to support ?.

all i can say is, if your god is like that, i refuse to worship or acknowledge him.. and i certainly do not want to get to know him.

14 years ago

WontLeave 14 years ago

Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me. - John 5:28-30

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144

1st Cen. Christianity - One Organization

by StandFirm in

14 years ago

here is the promised debate.

the subject is whether or not god has an organization.

i'll start things simply:.

14 years ago

WontLeave 14 years ago

The Jehovah's Witnesses claim to only use the Bible as evidence of their beliefs. As we all know, from talking to Trinitarians, a church doctrine can taint what people see when they read Scripture. The litmus test of doctrine is this: If someone were left alone, without outside influence from a church, what beliefs would they come away with when they read the Bible?

Witnesses would trip over themselves to agree, if someone left to his own devices read the Bible, no way would he come away with the Trinity. By the same token, realistically, would anyone left to his own devices read the Bible and come away with the "faithful and discreet slave" being human overlords? Would someone left to his own devices read the Bible and come away with a cohesive, unified organization where no point was permitted to be questioned?

When any church starts telling you what something in the Bible "means", hang on to your wallet and your brain, because they're about to make a grab for one of those. The reason JWs read 10 times as much Watchtower literature as they do Bible is to set your mental stage, when you read the Bible. They plant the seeds of what they want you to see, then only show you the verses that could be seen that way. The average JW puts total trust in the WT, so that when it "explains" the context, they just accept it without actually reading the context.

The account in Acts is obviously Paul going to Jerusalem to tell the Jewish Christians there to get their doctrine right. But the Society paints a picture of Paul going with his hat in his hand to ask for their guidance. Since Paul wasn't there, they present a "1st Century governing body" that didn't include Paul, one of the apostles most used by Holy Spirit. Paul went there to bust heads, but the Watchtower scenario has Paul humbly submitting to the decision of the older men in Jerusalem, then being sent out to spread their decision, like a fresh-faced Gilead graduate. This is so ridiculous, it's not even funny.

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