Posts by WontLeave

36

Are You A "Dictionary Atheist"?

by cofty in

there is more to .. atheism than simple denial of one claim; it's actually based on a scientific attitude that values evidence and reason, that rejects claims resting solely on authority, and that encourages deeper exploration of the world.

atheism is not solely a negative claim about gods, but is based on a whole set of positive values ... that denial of god thing?

it's a consequence, not a cause.

WontLeave

Sadly, the more ignorant someone is, the more they cling to their "beliefs". More people need to stop believing and start knowing, and knowing requires information rather than just picking what you wish to believe and looking for websites that promote that belief. I saw a quote recently that I liked - I believe it was from Abraham Lincoln: "Once a man forms a theory, he sees evidence for it everywhere he looks." Conspiracy theorists do it, Evolutionists do it, theists do it - and actively seeking "proofs" while summarily rejecting or avoiding any disproof only polarizes someone even more.

The way I look at it, I don't have a dog in the race: I didn't write the Bible, the Q'ran, Book of Mormon, Origin of Species, etc... I just want to know. Knowing is difficult and arduous, with all the agendas. Reading through the BS, spin, and propaganda requires a lot more effort than the vast majority of people are willing to expend. But, maybe that's a choice each must make: Know about life or have a life, because there isn't enough time in the day to do both. So, most just pick a belief system that fits their lifestyle, run with it, and hope for the best.

Far too many people seem to fall at the opposite end of the spectrum, though. People who know absolutely nothing and cling militantly to their beliefs, while demanding all around them adopt those same beliefs. The more ignorant and brainwashed someone is, it seems the more angry and demanding that one is. It's as if somewhere in their minds, they know they look stupid, but elevating one's self is a lot more difficult than bringing others down to your level. In cases where they refuse to adopt our belief, simply deluding ourselves to the knee-jerk reaction that person is "a goat", "arrogant", "infidel", "apostate", "stupid", "redneck theist", etc. is more pleasing to the ego than admitting our argument was unpersuasive.

The reality is, most people we encounter have chosen their belief system by what fits their lives and they really don't feel like taking the time and effort to completely reassess that belief unless something major happens in their lives to shake that foundation. Something happened in my life that made me doubt everything I'd been spoon-fed and put me on a "journey of enlightenment". Sometimes that happens, but most will simply be repelled to what they feel is "the other side" of whatever dichotomy they perceive and settle into another belief system that fits their current mindset and move on with life.

55

Believers: Does Jesus Personally Talk to You?

by leavingwt in

jw
friends

some of my christian co-workers have related to me how jesus has spoken to them.

one of the comments that i remember specifically, was this:.

"jesus put it on my heart to [take a certain course of action].

WontLeave

No actual voices, but I often pray for understanding and seem to grasp things from the Bible nobody else I talk to seems to get. Granted, JWs don't read the Bible with a view to understand it, but relegate that to the Watchtower to dumb down and "explain" for them. One pioneer asked me what sort of things I pray for and I told her I don't pray to ask for much, because I don't believe God is very hands-on right now. Many JWs practically believe in faith healing. I was at an assembly and a woman in one "experience" said her prayers were answered when her husband's cancer went into remission. But I digress... I told her I did pray for understanding. She looked at me funny and asked "Isn't that the faithful and discreet slave's job?" Perhaps because of my persistent knocking, I am granted "power beyond what is normal" in the capacity of understanding the Bible, or maybe I just really care what it says rather than seeing Bible reading as a chore I have to do before the evening meeting so I can make a canned comment borrowed from a Watchtower article written on a 3rd-grade reading level.

43

For those that are and have been married,did the JW lifestyle aggravate "typical" marital and family problems?

by miseryloveselders in

jw
friends

i ask this in consideration of last week's and this week's congregation bible study which focuses on the responsibilities of christian parents, and husbands.

i also ask this in harmony with itscrap&theyknowit's thread which is a heluva opening post by the way.

i linked it below for those that aren't familiar with it.. http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/206133/1/why-i-eventually-left.

WontLeave

It's my opinion that anyone, regardless of denomination, who allows outside human "interpretation" or blatant man-made rules to run their lives gets what they deserve. Not to remove all blame from people who run cults, governments, or churches, but it is our own brains we need to protect from being washed. Most people are so lazy and/or apathetic they'll give control of their very minds over to someone else. Human nature being what it is, if you offer your mind to someone else - especially someone who craves that very power - they'll take it.

The vast majority of people in churches - JWs included - claim to base their lives on the Bible, yet have never read it. Many of the ones who do read it don't care enough to pay attention and don't comprehend and/or immediately forget what they read. Repeatedly, the Bible warns against granting other people power over your faith, because they are imperfect - both in ability and in motive. (2 Thes 4:3-4, 1John 4:1, Acts 17:11, Pro 14:15, Eph 4:14-15, Gal 2:4-5, Col 3:23-24, 1Sam 12:20-21, 2Pet 2:18-21, 1Tim 4:1-5, Psa 146:3, 118:8, Jer 15:5, Luke 11:35) If people ignore all of those warnings - and many others, both direct and indirect - in favor of some convoluted, pathetic explanations of what "faithful and discreet slave" and "Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive" mean, then it's difficult to have too much sympathy.

This isn't 1100 AD, people. You can get a Bible for free, at a dollar store, read it online in many versions. The rich man and Lazarus was all about access to the Scriptures. For hundreds of years, people were willing to die to see what the Bible really said, so they wouldn't have to take their clergy's word for it. Now, people have one sitting on the coffee table they completely take for granted. Meanwhile, they claim to live by it. Then, they blame a denomination for the duality of their mind where they will entertain conflicting thoughts and brainwash themselves to hold both as truth.

People blame the Catholic Church for Inquisitions, Puritans for witch hunts, Nazis for the Holocaust, cults for mass suicides, governments for wars and war crimes, etc. Why are all the people who actually perpetrate the deeds absolved of responsibility? We invite mind control by not taking control of our own minds. JWs are just another group of people acting as a group. Mob mentality is a very powerful thing, but every mob is made up of individuals who have relinquished their minds to the mob and each is personally responsible - in courts and to God.

27

A serious Bible contradiction for me

by sabastious in

mark 9:.

38 teacher, said john, we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.. 39 do not stop him, jesus said.

for no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me,40for whoever is not against us is for us.41 truly i tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the messiah will certainly not lose their reward.. .

WontLeave

Even with no context, there is no problem. Jesus promotes a common idea in the Bible: There are only 2 sides, a dichotomy - like a flip of a coin. If it's not heads, it's tails. In the cosmic sheep/goats division process, everyone must fall into a "friend" or "foe" category.

5

Does this make sense to you?

by WontLeave in

i don't believe it's possible to post pdf files here, so here's a link to it.

let me know if it needs any tweaking.

it makes sense to me, but i made it.

WontLeave

I can't help but wonder:

Are the GB so arrogant they consciously think, "These people are so stupid and brainwashed they'll never put 2 and 2 together"?

...or is there a conscientious group in Bethel trying to sneak the information into the literature, under the radar of the power structure, that is frustrated with the inability and unwillingness of 7M people to put 2 and 2 together?

5

Does this make sense to you?

by WontLeave in

i don't believe it's possible to post pdf files here, so here's a link to it.

let me know if it needs any tweaking.

it makes sense to me, but i made it.

WontLeave

Okay, I changed it a little. I would like to keep it on one page, because the concept is simple arithmetic; nothing complex. The Society hiding the real numbers so they can just insert whatever date they want is what makes it difficult, using only their literature. If you want to see the new version, here's the link again.

Thanks for the input.

5

Does this make sense to you?

by WontLeave in

i don't believe it's possible to post pdf files here, so here's a link to it.

let me know if it needs any tweaking.

it makes sense to me, but i made it.

WontLeave

I don't believe it's possible to post pdf files here, so here's a link to it. Let me know if it needs any tweaking. It makes sense to me, but I made it. Just looking for some productive criticism.

13

Need reference for withholding the truth from "those who don't deserve it"

by Pistoff in

hey all, i know that the references for 'theocratic warfare' are ancient and not considered useful.. i would like a reference to the wt saying that one does not have to give truth to those who are not worthy or something similar.. help!.

this information is for a court case.

WontLeave

I enjoy the articles that permit lying to people who don't deserve the truth. Since there is zero evidence that elders are actually appointed by Holy Spirit, I feel no compulsion to tell them anything, per the Society's own standards. Also, the Society feels no compulsion to tell us many, many things about the GB, Beth-Sarim and Beth-San, 1975, Heaven is the Pleiades, "bedroom laws", organ transplant and vaccination bans, etc., etc., etc... I feel they can fall under the Golden Rule and they have demonstrated they deserve no candor, because they offer no candor.

39

Have you made MAJOR CHANGES since you started posting here?

by nicolaou in

i ask because i've been posting at jwd/jwn for 10 years now.

i was a rapidly fading jw when i started but still considered myself a christian for a good few years more.

now i've embraced reason and rejected faith i'm a very happy atheist and enjoy learning more about the fact of evolution.. what about you?.

WontLeave

That has been a source of great mental debate for me...

I don't buy into the "All 1st-century Christians were anointed" dogma, because Jesus said “Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth." If everybody there who joined him would go to Heaven, then who was he talking to? The arbitrary cutoff in 1935, prior teaching that all JWs (and Bible Students) were anointed, and subsequent reopening of the Heavenly door were all very presumptuous. We don't tell God who is anointed; He tells us.
1 Cor 11:26 says "For as often as YOU eat this loaf and drink this cup, YOU keep proclaiming the death of the Lord, until he arrives." If Jesus arrived in 1914, then isn't that requirement over?
Only the faithful apostles were present at the Last Supper (Mat 26:20) - even though Jesus had accumulated about 120 followers (Acts 1:15) - and those 11 were all anointed and going to Heaven. If the Memorial exclusively pertains to the anointed, why would I be there at all?
The JW understanding of John 6:44 being about all Christians and not just about anointed is completely wrong if the surrounding context is read.

I usually try to be conveniently "out of town" during the Memorial, so it's assumed I just attend wherever I am, but I don't go. I don't believe the JWs have any idea what's going on with the anointed, which is why they believe 7 of them can order us around like their dogs. In my prayers, I make it clear to Jehovah that I am doing what is in my conscience, according to how I understand the Bible. I ask for forgiveness if I am offending Him or Jesus, or slighting Jesus' "brothers", but feel violating my conscience is more likely to be my undoing. (paragraph formatting got a bit screwy, so I hope this makes individual points stand apart.)

11

US denomination survey: JWs among religions with biggest increase

by MrMonroe in

the blindness spreads.. as reported here:.

church membership for more than a third of the nation's largest churches took a hit last year while non-orthodox christian churches are on the rise, a new report on denominations finds.the southern baptist convention, the nation's second largest denomination, reported a .42 percent decline in membership to 16,160,088 members, according to national council of churches' 2011 yearbook of american & canadian churches, released monday.. still dominating the list of the nation's top 25 mainline churches is the catholic church, which posted a .57 growth at 68.5 million members.. but a few church bodies, regarded as cults by some christians, continue to increase in size.. ranked 20th in size, the jehovahs witnesses denomination reported a 4.37 percent gain in membership, with 1,162,686 members total.

seventh-day adventist church, which didn't make the top 25 list for at least the past two years, squeezed in the list this year in the 24th spot.

WontLeave

(fingers in ears, blinders on) La, la, la, la, la! I don't hear any of your lies. The WTS keeps telling me membership in churches is plummeting, while JW numbers are skyrocketing. Don't try to confuse me with any of your "facts". "statistics", or other "smooth talk".