Posts by WontLeave

9

Trading a real sense of LIFE and DEATH for the Watchtower metaphors

by Terry in

the saddest of all the sad things my eyes have beheld was this one sunny day on a grassy green knoll that led up to an outstretched oak tree beneath which was a tiny coffin with a little red balloon tied on, dizzily dancing in the gusts of summer wind.

the poignancy of that red balloon wrenched my heart with the ugly beauty of it all.

such a small coffin!

WontLeave

I encountered a similar question from a Bible study once: Why do we all have to suffer for Adam's sin?

No, it's not fair. Likewise, what happened to Job wasn't fair. Neither he nor his family and servants had done anything do deserve what happened to them. But that's the whole point: Under Satan's regime, nothing is fair. Only under God's Kingdom will all be made equitable.

And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. - Isa 2:4

If we only have one shot, how frustrating and unthinkable is it for all the children born into crippling poverty, with horrible birth defects, with AIDS or other deadly diseases, into abuse which leaves them mentally and emotionally ruined, or just to parents who raise them with upbringings that will take decades to recover from, if at all. Many here feel the better part of their lives were taken from them by brainwashing and isolation from alternatives, or worse.

If this is "the real life", many people are screwed out of the gate and there's nothing they can do about it. Think about the population of the earth and contrast that with the population of truly modern societies. Even though China is industrialized, for example, there are so many people there, only a small fraction have been elevated by a flourishing economy. About - what? - 10% of the planet live in a country where making something of one's life is even a possibility? And out of that ~10%, if one is born into a family where education is scorned, work ethic is exchanged for entitlement, a lifestyle of squandering resources on appearances rather than true substance is promoted; that culture will probably take hold and ruin the rest of that one's life.

The saving grace we have, as imperfect, sinful people that Adam didn't, is forgiveness. Perfection can't be forgiven, because perfection doesn't fail to remain sinless but choose to sin. Satan can't be forgiven, neither can the fallen angels or the first couple. Nowhere is any remorse on their part indicated, either. When we fail, when we succumb to imperfect human failures, we can regret it, repent, and be forgiven.

Everybody found worthy of being the type of person God wants in his Paradise will have equal opportunity to enjoy life to the full. Anyone not found worthy, their lives were temporary anyway and "all is vanity and a striving after wind" (Ecc 1:14). This may sound harsh and JWs' (and many other fundie churches') idea of judgement is harsh. In the light of the true Judge, Christ, it's not bad at all.

The JWs are under the impression the elders hold the keys to Paradise and if they DF you, when Armageddon comes, you're screwed on their say-so. All based on their enforcing man-made rules and human interpretation of God's rules - What arrogance! This attitude alone will probably send many of them straight to Gehenna. The JW idea that only 7M (or less, if their hours aren't up) JWs are making it to the New World and 144k JWs are going to fill all the seats in Heaven is one of the most mind-numbingly idiotic teachings of all.

Keep in mind, the entire reason religion exists is to confuse people, and the entire reason for the churches is specifically to make God and the Bible look ridiculous. It plants seeds in our minds that taint our understanding, even when looking right at the Bible. It takes a massive personal effort to empty our cup before filling it with Bible truth. I am still finding areas of my understanding which, when close examination of Scripture is done, are bent toward a preconceived false idea. Every time I read the Bible, I find "Wait, did that just say what I thought it said?" verses that fly in the face of something I thought I knew.

35

Were There/Are There A Number Of Gays At Bethel?

by minimus in

jw
friends

i remember the "boy's club" mentality from many of the bethelites in the 70's and 80's.

it seemed there were a number of males who were "effeminate" back in the day.. i knew of one guy that was told by the bethel brass that he would "go places" at headquarters if he could learn to deepen his voice and tone down his gestures a bit (and he was told it wouldn't hurt if he ever married a fellow bethelite sister).

this man was extensively used at conventions, became less "gay looking" and got married.. so my question is, did you see effeminate men in bethel?

WontLeave

The "It's a choice" crowd really tick me off. As a straight man, there is no possible way I could "choose" to have sex with a man. If a man finds other men attractive, obviously it's in his chemistry and not the result of a conscious coin-flip. I give uber props to any Christian with a predisposition toward homosexuality who 'pummel their bodies and lead them as slaves'. All these fundie church groups and even JWs who believe you just go to the elders about it and they'll throw some WT articles at you and "pray the gay away"; I just want to punch someone in the head for being so stupid and ignorant while assuming the positions of counselors and psychotherapists.

209

The trouble with Christianity. TRINITY.

by whereami in

gotta love pat.. "ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions.

ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity.

it is the mere abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of jesus.

WontLeave

@godrulz

Actually, I understood the Father/Son relationship from reading the Bible, then did research to find which churches understood this simple Bible truth rather than inventing a non-existent Father-Son combo. I joined JWs because they understand this and many other things from the Bible accurately. The JW doctrine, for the most part, is their best quality. Their failing is mostly in their attitude, man-made rules, and elevation of their leadership to Christ-like positions.

You never did answer the simple question: When Jesus was baptized on earth, the Father was acknowledging him as his son from Heaven, and the Holy Spirit was sent by the Father to anoint the Son, where was God, since there is only one yet all three of these (in your mind) is God? Was God in Heaven, on Earth, or making the trip between?

20

When did the WT say that homosexual extramarital affairs were not grounds for divorce?

by doubtful in

i've heard it said that the watchtower printed an official stance on what qualifies as "adultery" at one point in the 1970s??

they said that a woman was not free to divorce her husband if her husband had sex with another man or with an animal, as such sexual relations did not constitute "becoming one flesh"... apparently vaginal intercourse is the only means of fusing two human bodies together.... what watchtower is such a doctrine found in?

is it in the wt cd-rom?

WontLeave

The really interesting part is, at the same time, your spouse requesting oral sex was grounds for divorce. This is why I want no part of man-made rules.

@doubtful

Check http://www.quotes-watchtower.co.uk for some good quotes, many can still be found on the CD-ROM, for those JWs who want to believe everything brought to their attention are filthy lies from diseased, demonic minds.

209

The trouble with Christianity. TRINITY.

by whereami in

gotta love pat.. "ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions.

ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity.

it is the mere abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of jesus.

WontLeave

@godrulz

The tetragrammaton is Hebrew, so why would it be in the NT, which was written in Greek? You may be thinking of the Septuagint, which is the OT translated into Greek. This would be what 1st-Century Jews and Christians read and the original Hebrew of the Divine Name has been found in copies. Perhaps even some JWs you have spoken with made this mistake, but I've researched the subject and never found evidence the Society has published anything indicating any NT copies were found to contain the Divine Name. They have made it clear where the OT is quoted and the Divine Name occurred, it's assumed the 1st-Century speaker or writer would have been using the wording from the Septuagint and the Hebrew Divine Name would have probably been used. Granted, there are some places where it is unsubstantiated conjecture to place the Divine Name, but the majority are logical.

With the long-standing (false) understanding among Jews that the Divine Name wasn't to be used at all and the many early writings lost from the destruction of the Temple in 70, it's not much of a stretch to assume the Divine Name occurred in the NT and had been removed long before the Trinity dogma was invented. If anyone did it, it would actually have been Jews removing the Divine Name; not Trinitarians.

I'm not exactly sure why you're bashing the Society so much in a forum full of ex- and disgruntled JWs. You act like we're all defending the Governing Body and making them out to be modern-day apostles. As much as I dislike it, your ignorance of JW-related subjects along with your insistence on repeatedly addressing them has me defending people I don't particularly care for, because I am a lover of truth. Granted, many on this forum are so filled with hate for the Watchtower, they're on board with any negativity aimed at it. I'm not interested in who is right, but what is right. If the Watchtower woke up tomorrow and realized the error of their ways, stopped worshiping itself, revoked the man-made rules, and started permitting Christian freedom, I'd be in the front row at the next meeting.

13

Visit from JW today

by Listener in

a jw knocked on my door this morning and she was with her young teenage son, who was dressed in tie, suit and shiny leather shoes.

she has been in the religion for 18 years.

we had a looong conversation and discussed many issues (briefly).

WontLeave

Oh really? When did it become illegal to obtain spiritual food?

"You received free, give free" is only even close to true now because of the tax laws. How long were they selling the stuff? They copyright everything;even the invitations they'll use one time. These people are paranoid. You really want to see them go nuts? Next time you're in the back room being grilled by the losers in cheap suits, tell them when they're in violation of the "Flock" book. Some of them will come completely unhinged if they know you have their book.

209

The trouble with Christianity. TRINITY.

by whereami in

gotta love pat.. "ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions.

ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity.

it is the mere abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of jesus.

WontLeave

@PSacramento

Unless you're under the impression all other English words were imported without any damage, I'm not sure if you're trying to be argumentative or if you're so seething with hate for Jehovah's Witnesses that you refuse to accept a word that preexisted them for several hundred years, just because it's associated with the group.

@godrulz

I'm pretty sure nobody every said the tetragrammaton was in the Greek New Testament. The NWT actually states the appearances of "Jehovah" in their NT are assumed. Stop setting up straw men. This is what bugs me about you being here, with no first-hand understanding of being a JW; you often have no idea what you're talking about and you're only arguing with yourself. That and you're a broken record about Jesus being Almighty God, with your tired Trinity arguments everybody here has already heard many, many times. ...in fact, we've heard them many, many times from you. Maybe if you say it a few more times, we'll become hypnotized or brainwashed and come over to "your" side.

178

...Were Trump`s comments about Obama Racist?...

by OUTLAW in

more backlash: david letterman considers banning trump for his racist comments.

by colby hall | 8:16 am, april 29th, 2011 video .

david letterman and his guest dr. phil discussed donald trumps recent allegations that barack obama was.

WontLeave

David "You gotta love this guy" Letterman had a problem with something negative said about Obama? Get out! He's more of a left-wing groupie than John Stuart. I wonder if he'd ban someone from his show for having said something similar (or even far worse) about Bush... He's a caricature of a leftist, obsessing over race, whoever the democrat guy is, bashing anyone in the republican party, then crying hate any time someone says something he doesn't like. Letterman makes me sick with his arrogant opinions. Like most Hollywood elitists, he believes nobody with a firing brain cell could possibly disagree with him on any subject. If he had his own magazine, he'd call any dissenters "mentally diseased".

209

The trouble with Christianity. TRINITY.

by whereami in

gotta love pat.. "ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions.

ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity.

it is the mere abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of jesus.

WontLeave

Actually, it's ???? ‎+ ??????? (Edit: Okay, never mind. The Hebrew didn't paste at all.); not YHWH + Adonai, which are transliterations. You might want to check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q%27re_perpetuum#Qere_perpetuum http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah#Pronunciation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragrammaton#Jehovah and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:He-YHWH.ogg before you "LOL" too much. The etymology of "Jehovah" is just as sound as many English words that nobody minds.

It's also been my experience that people who use "LOL" usually haven't said anything amusing.

209

The trouble with Christianity. TRINITY.

by whereami in

gotta love pat.. "ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions.

ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity.

it is the mere abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of jesus.

WontLeave

@godrulz

You're making a basic logical fallacy, in that if you can poke holes in others' theories that makes yours right. In reality, your theory can be just as wrong or even more so. Certain parts of the Trinity dogma are demonstrably false, from the Bible. Many Bible verses demand God and Jesus are not coequal or coeternal. The very father/son relationship indicates this. Jesus said he was returning to his god and our god. Paul said the Christ's head is God. The Christ is begotten, indicating a begetting or beginning.

Also, you keep insisting Christianity is monotheistic and that is blatantly false, unless you mean orthodox self-proclaimed "Christianity". The Bible is not monotheistic at all. I've heard the argument you keep making about there being only one "true God", which would make Jesus as a separate god a false god. But you and the others who make this argument don't understand the difference between "God" and "god". The Koine Greek used the same word for God and god, just as English does, only we capitalize it when referring specifically to the Father, Jehovah. Usually, Koine used a definite article to refer to God, rather than a generic use of the word "god".

Just like there are many mothers in the world, each of us only has one Mother. Because we recognize her as our mother, she is Mother (or Mom, Mommy, Mama, whatever) and not just a mother. We only have one Mother, but that doesn't mean no other mothers exist or they are false mothers. The Bible clearly uses the same word translated as "god" for angels. Are they false gods, since there is only one true God?

If we start worshiping Gabriel, that would be false worship and Gabriel would be a false God - albeit he wouldn't be responsible for our unilateral actions. Many ancient false pagan gods may have been statues and altars set up for demons interacting with humans and garnering worship for themselves, in opposition to Jehovah. Baal, Moloch, and perhaps some of the Egyptian and Greek gods may have actually had supernatural backing and were not simply myths and stories. Worshiping any of them would be wrong and they would be a false God. We actually see from Exodus that the Egyptian priests had some help from a false God who was opposing Jehovah when they were able to match some of Aaron's and Moses' miracles.

I absolutely agree there is only one true God and his name is Jehovah (in English). He has ordered us to show similar respect to his only-begotten as our Savior and Lord. The worship belongs to God and it is his to direct as he sees fit. Before Jesus died for our sins, Jehovah demanded all worship for himself. Once his son played the role he did and suffered for us, Jehovah gave Jesus position and authority he hadn't held before and for the first time, in the New Testament, the Almighty shares his throne with Jesus, even placing him on it for 1000 years. Eventually Jesus turns the rule back over to his Father, acknowledging the superior position of Jehovah. All of this is clearly spelled out, extremely simple, and requires no mental contortions or ignoring of uncomfortable scriptures.

Also, your theory is not the Trinity, unless you're simply avoiding some parts. The Trinity outright states the Father is entirely God, the Son is entirely God, and the Holy Spirit is entirely God; yet there are not 3 Gods, but 1 God. You never address each personality of the Godhead as individually being wholly God in and of himself.

While the Son was on earth and the Father was in Heaven, according to the Trinity dogma, where was God? When Jesus was baptized, the Father in Heaven acknowledged the Son on earth and sent Holy Spirit. This is a favorite of Trinitarians when dealing with Modalists, because Modalism defines Father, Son, Holy Spirit as the same person just acting in different roles, like Superman and Clark Kent. Since they are the same person, you'll never see them together. However, the problem this scene creates for the Trinity is we see Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in 3 different places, at the same time. If the Father is entirely God, the Son is entirely God, and the Holy Spirit is entirely God, how do you have each one in a different place at the same time, yet there is only one God?

Wouldn't it be easier just to go by what the Bible actually says is the relationship? You think God doesn't know our experience with what a father is? or what a son is? You think God purposely picked the worst possible symbolism and analogy to describe the Christ/God relationship? Regardless of the supernatural nature of God and Christ; despite both of them being beyond human comprehension, this is how God wanted us to view their relationship and put it in terms we would appreciate enough to show the proper respect and appreciation to each individual in their respective roles.

I - and many in this forum - have already put a lot of thought, study, and prayer into this matter and are not parroting any church doctrine. Many come right out and admit they have no idea, as the religions and biased Bible translators have so muddied the water of truth they are afraid to make a concrete decision about the nature of the God/Christ relationship. I can respect that, but to just regurgitate a demonstrably false church dogma while claiming a purely-Scriptural origin for it is just openly dishonest or indicative of willful ignorance. Whether it's Modalism, Arianism, JW-ism, Trinitarianism, or whatever man-made contrivance, they all fall short of the truth, as none can be totally contained within Scripture. The Bible doesn't argue both sides of an issue and if parts of the Bible are violated by a theory, the theory needs to change. Of course, Trinitarians, Modalists, and JWs all do mental backflips to avoid admitting their theories fail in light of Scripture and are in total denial. To one who cares more about what is right than who is right, when the Bible slaps a theory, that theory is dead and the Trinity can go right on the pile with all the other theories you recognize as false.

The problem with the Trinity is the same as problems every church (including JW) doctrine encounters. It goes beyond what the Bible actually says and starts getting into what men believe it infers. God told us what he wants us to know and we don't have to dissect his words and extrapolate specifics beyond what are stated. When men start adding detail the Bible doesn't divulge, they're usually wrong. The Trinity dogma goes beyond what is written to such an extent that it bumps heads with many verses and intricate tapestries of excuses are required to explain away the contradictions. The truth isn't that difficult and doesn't require so much work when encountering other truths. Jesus and the apostles didn't promote teachings that required them to spin outlandish adapters to allow them to link with Scripture.