Vanderhoven7

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Posts by Vanderhoven7

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  540

  Simple Question Re 1914

  by Slidin Fast in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

  and the end times.

  a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

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  Vanderhoven7

  McDaniel provides some insight here.

  The JW theory is obviously convoluted and confusing.

  • If we examine Daniel 2, it is obvious that the kingdom would be established “in the days of those kings” (Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome), not 1,900 years later!
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  • The vision of the great tree has nothing to do, contextually or otherwise, with the Jerusalem kingdom but describes King Nebuchadnezzar’s greatness, his abasement, and subsequent reinstatement (cf. Dan. 4:1-37).
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  • There are no contextual links between the “times” in Daniel 4 and Revelation 12 that would necessitate an interpretative connection. It is wrong to tie different texts together simply to prove a predetermined, unscriptural point.
  • Though in poetic and prophetic Biblical literature “days” can represent periods of times (or “years”), figurative language cannot be forced into a literal application. (Notice in the above quote that “seven times” is semi-literal but becomes 2,520 days—figurative—then to 2,520 years—literal. It is too inconsistent, and God is not the author of confusion!)

  Obviously, with such flawed interpretations of Biblical prophecy, the third question—When did Jesus become king?—is answered incorrectly by Jehovah’s Witnesses WDJBK
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  540

  Simple Question Re 1914

  by Slidin Fast in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

  and the end times.

  a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

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  Vanderhoven7

  @Scholar,

  Sorry, as I see it, none of the so-called evidence you present lifts the secondary fulfilment theory above speculation or indicates that Daniel 4 is about 1914.

  Are you suggesting that Jesus really knew the timing of his parousia based on Daniel 4 but just did not know how to express it because the year 1914 is "tabulated in a very different calendrical system"?

  Let me suggest that your inability to find a NonJW scholar that sees a dual fulfillment to Daniel 4 .... is because it is simply not supported by the text. It's just another example of WTS eisegesis

  Besides, as I see it, Jesus was enthroned in the first century CE.
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  540

  Simple Question Re 1914

  by Slidin Fast in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

  and the end times.

  a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

  1. 
  2. 
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  Vanderhoven7

  Scholar

  I see no evidence let alone proof that Daniel 4 has a secondary fulfillment. I see only speculation. If it is not stated, it is merely assumed.

  Can you quote a nonJW "scholar" who supports this WTS claim?

  Why do you think Jesus couldn't predict 1914 based on Daniel 4?
• 
  540

  Simple Question Re 1914

  by Slidin Fast in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

  and the end times.

  a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

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  2. 
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  Vanderhoven7

  There are at least 10 assumptions that have to be made before arriving at 1914.

  The first is that Daniel 4 has a secondary fulfillment.

  We probably all know the other nine so I won't carry on here except to say that with each additional assumption the likelihood of the events the Watchtower associates with 1914 become increasingly questionable.
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  13

  Unpopular opinion

  by Judgerussellford in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  so i've asked this question to witnesses in the past (super no no question to ask by the way but hilarious responses) to bosses and coworkers, and random people of different faiths and i'm curious to know how mixed of a response this community will give.

  bible believers or not your oppinion is very welcome.

  technically according to scripture we are gods sons.

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  Vanderhoven7

  Hi GB,

  You just quoted the only reference in the entire Bible that juxtaposes eternal and torment. However, note that this verse is found in a highly symbolic book and in a highly symbolic passage that does not mention a single human being.

  I believe we must separate image from reality when trying to base doctrines on Revelation.

  For example although Revelation pictures both Jesus and Death as riders on horseback who set out to conquer, one might legitimately ask if it's possible that there could, in fact, be no "horses" or actual "riding" involved.

  
  

  - Is the beast of Revelation 20:10 - literal or symbolic?

  - How many heads do literal beasts (or persons) have?

  - Is this symbolic beast literally "cast" or thrown anywhere?

  - Is death literally cast or thrown anywhere?

  - Is the symbolic beast figuratively cast into a literal lake?

  - Is death cast into a literal lake?

  - What does the figurative lake of fire stand for? (14)

  - Is the symbolic beast literally tormented in the figurative lake?

  - The beast isn't literal; the casting isn't literal; and the lake is not literal; how can we be sure that the torment is literal?

  
  

  Death/destruction is the punishment for sin in scripture, not eternal existence in mental agony.
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  13

  Unpopular opinion

  by Judgerussellford in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  so i've asked this question to witnesses in the past (super no no question to ask by the way but hilarious responses) to bosses and coworkers, and random people of different faiths and i'm curious to know how mixed of a response this community will give.

  bible believers or not your oppinion is very welcome.

  technically according to scripture we are gods sons.

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  Vanderhoven7

  Allow me to interject here. It seems to me that scripture teaches that man is tripartite: body, soul and spirit; the soul being our personality, i.e., mind will and emotions, the spirit being that which gives life to the body and personality and allows for communication between God and man.

  first death = cessation of bodily function and soul consciousness (sleep being an appropriate metaphor)

  Second death = destruction of body, soul and spirit.
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  26

  JULY 15TH STUDY EDITION :"If ever that evil slave..." page 24

  by raymond frantz in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  box on page 24 of the july 15th titled :"if ever the evil slave....".

  jesus has placed the weightiest of responsibilities on the faithful and discreet slave-namely,overseeing the domestics and giving out spiritual food atthe proper time.

  jesus knew that those with greater responsibility have greater accountability.

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  Vanderhoven7

  Disillusioned JW As I see it, Jesus encouraged believers to be ready at all times precisely because the timing of the parousia would be unknown. In a time that ye think not, the Son of man cometh. It would be a surprise as was Noah’s flood...as a snare it would come upon the entire earth. In Matthew 24, Jesus says:

  42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

  43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

  44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

  
  

  So yes, in my view Miller, Barbour, Russell and Camping were trying to prove Jesus a liar and suffered the consequences.
  
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  26

  JULY 15TH STUDY EDITION :"If ever that evil slave..." page 24

  by raymond frantz in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  box on page 24 of the july 15th titled :"if ever the evil slave....".

  jesus has placed the weightiest of responsibilities on the faithful and discreet slave-namely,overseeing the domestics and giving out spiritual food atthe proper time.

  jesus knew that those with greater responsibility have greater accountability.

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  Vanderhoven7

  Yes, I was aware that Russell borrowed from Barbour and heralded Christ's 1874 presence till his death in 1916. And I am sure he believed in the chronology he taught. Unlike most, I think he had a relationship with both Father and Son...but I also believe that he, like Harold Camping, died a broken man in his attempts to prove Jesus was mistaken when he said no man knows the timing of the parousia. Sad really.
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  26

  JULY 15TH STUDY EDITION :"If ever that evil slave..." page 24

  by raymond frantz in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  box on page 24 of the july 15th titled :"if ever the evil slave....".

  jesus has placed the weightiest of responsibilities on the faithful and discreet slave-namely,overseeing the domestics and giving out spiritual food atthe proper time.

  jesus knew that those with greater responsibility have greater accountability.

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  Vanderhoven7

  Hi Disillusioned JW,

  Brandon Harper is simply a contributor on another forum. I thought his take was interesting but not necessarily in keeping with my perspective.

  I checked out the Bible Student site you used in your response. It seems to me that they are still promoting Russell and things he promoted i.e. 1874 for the second advent as well as his 6 volume Studies in The Scriptures series, pyramidology etc.

  How does this fit in with your thinking?

  Personally, I believe Jesus set up His kingdom post ascension in AD 33, that the second Advent is still future and that 1874 and 1914 are irrelevant to the gospel and salvation. By the way, next week is ascension week and I am preaching on the significance of the ascension this Sunday.
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  16

  New Religion

  by crios in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i need a new religion.

  it can't be trinidadian and it must be a christian church.

  it's been a while since i've been to the hall (and i'm not interested in returning either) and i need a new religion.

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  Vanderhoven7

  Hi Crios

  Try this Bible Student Assembly

  http://bbschurch.org/

  No Trinity, no shunning, no immortal soul. Lots of grace, community involvement, Bible study and evangelical outreach.

  James Penton appreciates this congregation.