Posts by Vanderhoven7

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Vanderhoven7

Hi Fisherman

It is absolutely obvious when the kingdom would be established. It has nothing to do with preconceived ideas.

https://beroeans.net/2014/07/23/watchtower-article-when-did-gods-kingdom-begin-ruling-part-1/

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Vanderhoven7

Regarding when Jesus became king, McDaniel writes:

The truth is, Jesus became king when He ascended to heaven in AD 30 and established the church. Before that time, Jesus (along with others) promised that the kingdom was at hand (cf. Matt. 4:17). The first century was the “fullness of the time” (cf. Gal. 4:4; Eph. 1:10), the predicted age of the Roman Empire when God would establish His eternal kingdom (cf. Dan. 2:44; 7:13-14). When the Lord returned to heaven, He possessed (and possesses) all authority (cf. Matt. 28:18), sat down on His Father’s throne (cf. Heb. 1:1-3; Eph. 1:18-23), and admitted the saved into His kingdom (cf. Col. 1:12-14).

So Fisherman and Scholar

Notice that Paul and all Christians at the time were saved and had been transferred from darkness into an already existing kingdom, the Kingdom of Christ in century one.

Colossians 1:13 KJV — Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Vanderhoven7

McDaniel provides some insight here.

The JW theory is obviously convoluted and confusing.

If we examine Daniel 2, it is obvious that the kingdom would be established “in the days of those kings” (Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome), not 1,900 years later!
The vision of the great tree has nothing to do, contextually or otherwise, with the Jerusalem kingdom but describes King Nebuchadnezzar’s greatness, his abasement, and subsequent reinstatement (cf. Dan. 4:1-37).
There are no contextual links between the “times” in Daniel 4 and Revelation 12 that would necessitate an interpretative connection. It is wrong to tie different texts together simply to prove a predetermined, unscriptural point.
Though in poetic and prophetic Biblical literature “days” can represent periods of times (or “years”), figurative language cannot be forced into a literal application. (Notice in the above quote that “seven times” is semi-literal but becomes 2,520 days—figurative—then to 2,520 years—literal. It is too inconsistent, and God is not the author of confusion!)

Obviously, with such flawed interpretations of Biblical prophecy, the third question—When did Jesus become king?—is answered incorrectly by Jehovah’s Witnesses WDJBK

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Vanderhoven7

@Scholar,

Sorry, as I see it, none of the so-called evidence you present lifts the secondary fulfilment theory above speculation or indicates that Daniel 4 is about 1914.

Are you suggesting that Jesus really knew the timing of his parousia based on Daniel 4 but just did not know how to express it because the year 1914 is "tabulated in a very different calendrical system"?

Let me suggest that your inability to find a NonJW scholar that sees a dual fulfillment to Daniel 4 .... is because it is simply not supported by the text. It's just another example of WTS eisegesis

Besides, as I see it, Jesus was enthroned in the first century CE.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Vanderhoven7

Scholar

I see no evidence let alone proof that Daniel 4 has a secondary fulfillment. I see only speculation. If it is not stated, it is merely assumed.

Can you quote a nonJW "scholar" who supports this WTS claim?

Why do you think Jesus couldn't predict 1914 based on Daniel 4?

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Vanderhoven7

There are at least 10 assumptions that have to be made before arriving at 1914.

The first is that Daniel 4 has a secondary fulfillment.

We probably all know the other nine so I won't carry on here except to say that with each additional assumption the likelihood of the events the Watchtower associates with 1914 become increasingly questionable.

13

Unpopular opinion

by Judgerussellford in

so i've asked this question to witnesses in the past (super no no question to ask by the way but hilarious responses) to bosses and coworkers, and random people of different faiths and i'm curious to know how mixed of a response this community will give.

bible believers or not your oppinion is very welcome.

technically according to scripture we are gods sons.

Vanderhoven7

Hi GB,

You just quoted the only reference in the entire Bible that juxtaposes eternal and torment. However, note that this verse is found in a highly symbolic book and in a highly symbolic passage that does not mention a single human being.

I believe we must separate image from reality when trying to base doctrines on Revelation.

For example although Revelation pictures both Jesus and Death as riders on horseback who set out to conquer, one might legitimately ask if it's possible that there could, in fact, be no "horses" or actual "riding" involved.

- Is the beast of Revelation 20:10 - literal or symbolic?

- How many heads do literal beasts (or persons) have?

- Is this symbolic beast literally "cast" or thrown anywhere?

- Is death literally cast or thrown anywhere?

- Is the symbolic beast figuratively cast into a literal lake?

- Is death cast into a literal lake?

- What does the figurative lake of fire stand for? (14)

- Is the symbolic beast literally tormented in the figurative lake?

- The beast isn't literal; the casting isn't literal; and the lake is not literal; how can we be sure that the torment is literal?

Death/destruction is the punishment for sin in scripture, not eternal existence in mental agony.

13

Unpopular opinion

by Judgerussellford in

so i've asked this question to witnesses in the past (super no no question to ask by the way but hilarious responses) to bosses and coworkers, and random people of different faiths and i'm curious to know how mixed of a response this community will give.

bible believers or not your oppinion is very welcome.

technically according to scripture we are gods sons.

Vanderhoven7

Allow me to interject here. It seems to me that scripture teaches that man is tripartite: body, soul and spirit; the soul being our personality, i.e., mind will and emotions, the spirit being that which gives life to the body and personality and allows for communication between God and man.

first death = cessation of bodily function and soul consciousness (sleep being an appropriate metaphor)

Second death = destruction of body, soul and spirit.

26

JULY 15TH STUDY EDITION :"If ever that evil slave..." page 24

by raymond frantz in

box on page 24 of the july 15th titled :"if ever the evil slave....".

jesus has placed the weightiest of responsibilities on the faithful and discreet slave-namely,overseeing the domestics and giving out spiritual food atthe proper time.

jesus knew that those with greater responsibility have greater accountability.

Vanderhoven7

Disillusioned JW As I see it, Jesus encouraged believers to be ready at all times precisely because the timing of the parousia would be unknown. In a time that ye think not, the Son of man cometh. It would be a surprise as was Noah’s flood...as a snare it would come upon the entire earth. In Matthew 24, Jesus says:

42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

So yes, in my view Miller, Barbour, Russell and Camping were trying to prove Jesus a liar and suffered the consequences.

26

JULY 15TH STUDY EDITION :"If ever that evil slave..." page 24

by raymond frantz in

box on page 24 of the july 15th titled :"if ever the evil slave....".

jesus has placed the weightiest of responsibilities on the faithful and discreet slave-namely,overseeing the domestics and giving out spiritual food atthe proper time.

jesus knew that those with greater responsibility have greater accountability.

Vanderhoven7

Yes, I was aware that Russell borrowed from Barbour and heralded Christ's 1874 presence till his death in 1916. And I am sure he believed in the chronology he taught. Unlike most, I think he had a relationship with both Father and Son...but I also believe that he, like Harold Camping, died a broken man in his attempts to prove Jesus was mistaken when he said no man knows the timing of the parousia. Sad really.