Posts by Vanderhoven7

22

"Apostasy"

by Zilgee in

the so called apostates of first century later became the catholic church.

these apostates like saint athanasius, theologian, ecclesiastical statesman, and egyptian national leader decided which books would be part of the bible.

we are now following what they decided.

Vanderhoven7

I believe there was a Watchtower quotation a while back that said that a person does not have to voice disagreement with official doctrine to be an apostate. Has anyone seen that quotation?

32

Who are the 144,000? Considering the immediate context of Revelation chapter 7

by raymond frantz in

who are the 144,000?

a critical examination of the teaching of the 144,000 from the perspective of an ex jx considering context and other references .this is from a series of videos called new light where i scrutinise all the major teachings of the watchtower.. https://youtu.be/aaseuzr-sxs.

Vanderhoven7

Thanks for this thought provoking essay AQ.

6

Court Cases Costs?

by LostintheFog1999 in

watch tower is in court all the time.

it wins some.

it loses others.. we know it costs £££££ to go to court, pay barristers, expert witnesses, etc.. with wtc going to court for so many diverse reasons these days, from challenging laws to defending wt practices and paying out to csa victims, how much do you think wtc is spending annually on court cases?.

Vanderhoven7

But they still need to fleece the flock for new building projects.

https://youtu.be/Ps340OyR_Gk

97

It is now 2003.... Where is Armageddon?

by Nosferatu in

jw
friends

i find it extremely amusing how each year is passing without armageddon.

"for the year 2000, i visualize a world transformed into a beautiful paradise!

but i don't think that either the present world or its rulers will live to see that day.. we are living in the last days of the system of things.

Vanderhoven7

The GT leading to Armageddon is unrepeatable history. The religion is built on empty threats.

136

Colossian 1:16 - "all OTHER things"

by aqwsed12345 in

due to their apparent theological bias, the watchtower shamelessly inserts the word "other" in order to "make room" for their own idea that jesus is also a created being.

it is clear that jehovah's witnesses try to avoid having to admit that christ created everything because "the one who constructed all things is god" (hebrews 3:4).

instead, the society teaches that "christ was the only one created by god," and that then he "created everything else with jehovah.

Vanderhoven7

For God ... hath committed all judgment unto the Son:THAT ALL MEN SHOULD HONOR THE SON EVEN AS THEY HONOR THE FATHER. He that honoureth not the Son, honoureth not the Father which hath sent Him. Jn.5:22,23

Witnesses argue that Jesus Christ is not entitled to the unqualified or unlimited worship due the Father. But by denying the Son reverent homage or service paid to God they can only ascribe to Him instead, recognition, honor, respect given to men.

Relative honor to God through an angel was reproved in these words: "Be careful! Do not do that!...Worship God." Revelation 19:10; 22:8, 9, NWT) 'Let God Be True', 1952 edition p. 151

The distinctions Witnesses make in worship due the Father and Son are totally extra-biblical and not in keeping with Apostolic teaching and practice.

What is it that distinguishes that Christ is not to be genuinely worshiped as the Father is worshiped?

.

Language of Scripture?

"Proskyneo" is consistently translated as "worship" in the King James. "Proskyneo" is applied 21 times to the Father and 17 times to the Son. The only fair conclusion we can come to here is that the language of scripture does not distinguish that Christ is not to be genuinely worshiped as the Father is worshiped.

Scriptural Example?

There is not one example of the disciples or anyone else in scripture limiting their expression of worship of Christ. Jesus never rebuked the disciple for improper proskyneo of Himself. only the self proclaimed religious authorities objected to Jesus being honored as the Father was honored. They proclaimed vigorously, saying such things as, "You make yourself equal with God" and "Only God can forgive sins" etc. To them, no man should claim the attributes or prerogatives of God. So not only does scriptural language, but also scriptural example fails to distinguish that Christ is not to be genuinely worshiped.

Scriptural Instruction?

There are no proscriptive instructions defining relative proskyneo of Christ, nor are there restrictive commandments, limiting the proskyneo of the Son. So the alleged distinction in meaning of proskyneo of Father and Son is not clarified by a distinction in scriptural terminology or by scriptural example or by scriptural commandment either prescriptive or restrictive. All restrictions proposed by any religious authority are really extra-biblical (i.e. the commandments of men). The truth is that ALL MEN SHOULD HONOR THE SON EVEN AS THEY HONOR THE FATHER (Jn.5:22, 23). Christians can and the disciples could, never honor Jesus too highly.

Witnesses argue that Matthew 4:10 excludes unqualified worship of the Son. "You shall worship the Lord your God and him ONLY shall you serve". (Matt 4:10) That is simply not true. The exclusive element of this instruction rests on the last phrase and yet we are called to be servants of Christ. If we substitute the word "Honor" for worship in Matthew 4:10, so that it read "You shall honor the Lord your God and him only shall you serve", would the verse inform Christians that they should not give identical honor to the Son?

Form and Content?

"...to worship Christ in any form cannot be wrong." (W.T. March 1880. p.83)

Can the alleged distinction in meaning of 'proskyneo' when applied to the Son be established by the form or content of worship displayed by the disciples/apostles? Do not the following constitute elements of proskyneo in terms of form and content that can legitimately be a part of the proskyneo rendered to the Son:

a. bowing the knee to Jesus while confessing Him as Lord? Phil.2:9-11

b. prostrating oneself completely before Jesus? Rev.5:8

c. fellowship or commune with Jesus, sharing our personal aspirations and hopes? I Jn.1:3

d. coming to Jesus for relief of personal burdens and cares? Mat. 11:28

e. calling on the name of Jesus, addressing Him personally as Lord? Acts 9:14, I Cor.1:2

f. praying personally to Jesus, petitioning Him for self and others? Acts 7:59-60 Jn.14:14

g. glorifying Jesus by praise? Ps.50:23 Jn.16:14, Mat.21:14-16

h. honoring Jesus verbally by ascribing worth to Him?

eg."To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever. Rev.5:13 NIV.

i. honoring Jesus by shouting or even singing His praises?

e.g. In a loud voice they (angels) sang: Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain to receive power and wealth and Wisdom and strength and HONOR AND GLORY AND PRAISE. Rev.5:12 NIV.

j. verbally ascribing to Jesus absolute worth?

e.g. JESUS: Lord of Lords and King of Kings;

Alpha and Omega, The First and the Last,

The beginning and the end. Rev.20:12

My Lord and my Ho Theos. Jn.20:28

Your name is to be praised O Emmanuel,

Ho Theos with us! Mat.1:23

All power in heaven and earth is Yours;

You created all things; and without you there was nothing made. Jn.1:3

And Your throne Ho Theos is forever. Heb. 1:8

May all angels and men worship you continually. Heb.1:6

Even so come Lord Jesus: Rev.22:20 Amen.

13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all the things in them, saying: “To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever.” 14 The four living creatures were saying: “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped. NWT

WHICH ELEMENTS OF PROSKYNEO (ABOVE) DO YOU PRACTICE?

Whether or not one acknowledges an ontological unity between Father and Son, it is clear that Jesus accepted the title God (Ho Theos) as part of worship of himself. (Jn 20:28) and we should feel free to address and worship Him as such. Anything less would be to reduce the honor due His name; the name above all names; the name to which angels must bow and to which the Father declares: Thy throne O God (Ho Theos) is forever. After all, Jesus Christ is our Creator. Why would we not worship our Creator as God?

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Vanderhoven7

Good luck Jorden.

20

When A WT/JW Elder Can't Handle The Truth...Priceless!😂

by JW GoneBad in

give a listen to this 4 minute video where a jw elder stammers, stutters & fumbles then hangs-up!.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=edfphabzxhw.

Vanderhoven7

Thought this was interesting.

Is the ex-JW community a cult by their own definition

by Charlie Ryde

Let us use the same BITE model for determining if something is a cult to both being a JW and being ex-JW. Mind you this is a short summary.

B- Behavioral Control

JW- complete control of acceptable behaviors punishable by loss of privilege or shunning.

ex-JW- not a group just a loose collective of traumatized individuals trying to move on and warn others. No rules of membership or punishments.

I - Intellectual Control

JW- prohibits or restricts reading materials. Discourages higher education.

ex-JW- still not an actual group but…Most ex-JWs encourage education and reading banned books.

T- Thought Control

JW- have a derogatory name for all nonmembers “worldly people”. Call their own teachings “The Truth”. Require complete adherence to the Truth without question to maintain membership.

ex-JW- no organized doctrine to control. Just people sad their families are destroyed.

E- Emotional Control

JW- require an appearance of joy to outsiders. Mental illness considered a defect due to not exercising accurate understanding of “The Truth”. Love Bombing when all is well, complete disassociation when a violation occurs.

ex-JW- focus on helping each other heal in any way possible and with understanding.

For a more detailed explanation of how JWs are a cults see the BITE model link below. .

The BITE Model and Jehovah's Witnesses

This blog applies the BITE model to the religious practices and doctrines of Jehovah’s Witnesses. A former member does a detailed assessment.

https://freedomofmind.com/the-bite-model-and-jehovahs-witnesses/

And here is the link for the BITE model proving exJWs are a cult as well:

http://www.bitemodelexjwsarentevenagroup.com

169

Rich Man and Lazarus

by Ding in

i have never understood the watchtower's explanation of the rich man and lazarus story jesus told in luke 16. of course, they don't believe jesus is talking about what happens in an "afterlife" after people die.. but from the watchtower's point of view:.

1. who are the five brothers?.

2. why can't lazarus go witness to them?

Vanderhoven7

The Pharisees, (like the organization) promised Abrahamic paradise to those who accepted God's judgment for their sins and those of their fathers. We cannot in good conscience help you.... Lazarus (God is your help) they would say to the poor without lifting a finger to help. In his story, Jesus placed "God is your help" in Abraham's Bosom just where the Pharisees said they would end up at death if they accepted their poverty and woes. But the rich man (i.e. the Pharisees) end up in the very hell they used to justify their refusal to help.

It's a parody, a masterful satire to undermine Pharisaic authority.

19

First post here. Inactive since January, making it permanent. Here is my intro

by madisoncembre in

new poster to this site.

i've started blogging and would like to share my experiences with you.

bear with me as i am completely new to this.

Vanderhoven7

No way. You didn't move out so he could move in.

169

Rich Man and Lazarus

by Ding in

i have never understood the watchtower's explanation of the rich man and lazarus story jesus told in luke 16. of course, they don't believe jesus is talking about what happens in an "afterlife" after people die.. but from the watchtower's point of view:.

1. who are the five brothers?.

2. why can't lazarus go witness to them?

Vanderhoven7

AQ

Yes, death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire where both will be destroyed eternally. No more death and no more hell. Wonderful - No?