Posts by Vanderhoven7

12

Should a person die for their religious BELIEFS?

by Fisherman in

in ancient israel many of the prophets were killed as a result of their religious assignments —from god.

even soldiers were sent out to fight against idolatrous “uncircumcised” and logically some died for example jonathan, the son of king saul.

these soldiers were said to be fighting the wars of jehovah and there was no miraculous salvation for everybody all of the time.

Vanderhoven7

Dying for a religion is useless. Christianity is a relationship with Jesus Christ. He is worth living for and dying for. That is what becoming and living as a Christian is all about. Galatians 2:20

69

Where Does Watchtower Doctrine Contradict Scripture?

by Vanderhoven7 in

here are some areas that i have found:.

not only is watchtower eschatology offbase, which is not critical, but so is watchtower soteriology … which is critical.

the bible says not to put trust in men who cannot save.

Witnesses argue that Jesus Christ is not entitled to the unqualified or unlimited worship due the Father. But by denying the Son reverent homage or service paid to God they can only ascribe to Him instead, recognition, honor, respect given to men.

Relative honor to God through an angel was

reproved in these words: "Be careful! Do not

do that!...Worship God."

Revelation 19:10; 22:8, 9, NWT)

'Let God Be True', 1952 edition p. 151

The distinctions Witnesses make in worship due the Father and Son are totally extra-biblical and not in keeping with Apostolic teaching and practice.

What is it that distinguishes that Christ is not to be genuinely worshiped as the Father is worshiped?

Language of Scripture:

"Proskyneo" is consistently translated as "worship" in the King James. "Proskyneo" is applied 21 times to the Father and 17 times to the Son. The only fair conclusion we can come to here is that the language of scripture does not distinguish that Christ is not to be genuinely worshiped as the Father is worshiped.

Scriptural Example:

There is not one example of the disciples or anyone else in scripture limiting their expression of worship of Christ. Jesus never rebuked the disciples for improper proskyneo of Himself. Only the self proclaimed religious authorities objected to Jesus being honored as the Father was honored. They proclaimed vigorously, saying such things as, "You make yourself equal with God" and "Only God can forgive sins" etc. To them, no man should claim the attributes or prerogatives of God. So not only does scriptural language, but also scriptural example fails to distinguish that Christ is not to be genuinely worshiped.

Scriptural Instruction:

There are no proscriptive instructions defining relative proskyneo of Christ, nor are there restrictive commandments, limiting the proskyneo of the Son. So the alleged distinction in meaning of proskyneo of Father and Son is not clarified by a distinction in scriptural terminology or by scriptural example or by scriptural commandment either prescriptive or restrictive. All restrictions proposed by any religious authority are really extra-biblical (i.e. the commandments of men). The truth is that ALL MEN SHOULD HONOR THE SON EVEN AS THEY HONOR THE FATHER (Jn.5:22, 23). Christians can and the disciples could, never honor Jesus too highly.

Witnesses argue that Matthew 4:10 excludes unqualified worship of the Son. "You shall worship the Lord your God and him ONLY shall you serve". (Matt 4:10) That is simply not true. The exclusive element of this instruction rests on the last phrase and yet we are called to be servants of Christ. If we substitute the word "Honor" for worship in Matthew 4:10, so that it read "You shall honor the Lord your God and him only shall you serve", would the verse inform Christians that they should not give identical honor to the Son?

Form and Content:

"...to worship Christ in any form cannot be wrong." (W.T. March 1880. p.83)

Can the alleged distinction in meaning of 'proskyneo' when applied to the Son be established by the form or content of worship displayed by the disciples/apostles? Do not the following constitute elements of proskyneo in terms of form and content that can legitimately be a part of the proskyneo rendered to the Son:

a. bowing the knee to Jesus while confessing Him as Lord? Phil.2:9-11

b. prostrating oneself completely before Jesus? Rev.5:8

c. fellowship or commune with Jesus, sharing our personal aspirations and hopes? I Jn.1:3

d. coming to Jesus for relief of personal burdens and cares? Mat. 11:28

e. calling on the name of Jesus, addressing Him personally as Lord? Acts 9:14, I Cor.1:2

f. praying personally to Jesus, petitioning Him for self and others? Acts 7:59-60 Jn.14:14

g. glorifying Jesus by praise? Ps.50:23 Jn.16:14, Mat.21:14-16

h. honoring Jesus verbally by ascribing worth to Him?

eg."To Him who sits on the throne, and to the

Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power,

for ever and ever. Rev.5:13 NIV.

i. honoring Jesus by shouting or even singing His praises?

e.g. In a loud voice they (angels) sang:

Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain

to receive power and wealth and Wisdom

and strength and HONOR AND GLORY

AND PRAISE. Rev.5:12 NIV.

j. verbally ascribing to Jesus absolute worth?

e.g. JESUS: Lord of Lords and King of Kings;

Alpha and Omega, The First and the Last,

The beginning and the end. Rev.20:12

My Lord and my Ho Theos. Jn.20:28

Your name is to be praised O Emmanuel,

Ho Theos with us! Mat.1:23

All power in heaven and earth is Yours;

You created all things; and without you there

was nothing made. Jn.1:3

And Your throne Ho Theos is forever. Heb. 1:8

May all angels and men worship you continually. Heb.1:6

Even so come Lord Jesus: Rev.22:20 Amen.

k. Worship of Lamb in heaven by all creation

“And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all the things in them, saying: “To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever.” The four living creatures were saying: “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped.” Rev. 5:13-14 NWT 1961

WHICH ELEMENTS OF PROSKYNEO (ABOVE) DO YOU PRACTICE?

Whether or not one acknowledges an ontological unity between Father and Son, it is clear that Jesus accepted the title God (Ho Theos) as part of worship of himself. (Jn 20:28) and we should feel free to address and worship Him as such. Anything less would be to reduce the honor due His name; the name above all names; the name to which angels must bow and to which the Father declares: Thy throne O God (Ho Theos) is forever. After all, Jesus Christ is our Creator. Why would we not worship our Creator as God?

69

Where Does Watchtower Doctrine Contradict Scripture?

by Vanderhoven7 in

here are some areas that i have found:.

not only is watchtower eschatology offbase, which is not critical, but so is watchtower soteriology … which is critical.

the bible says not to put trust in men who cannot save.

Vanderhoven7

It should be noted that Jesus is worthy of and entitled to worship, including, prayer and praise. The first to worship the invisible Christ, were the 11 disciples post ascension.

Luk 24:50 And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.

Luk 24:51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

Luk 24:52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:

Luk 24:53 And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.

69

Where Does Watchtower Doctrine Contradict Scripture?

by Vanderhoven7 in

here are some areas that i have found:.

not only is watchtower eschatology offbase, which is not critical, but so is watchtower soteriology … which is critical.

the bible says not to put trust in men who cannot save.

Vanderhoven7

54¶When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

55But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

57¶Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,

58And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.

59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Note. The vision took place at the trial. Stephen was then dragged out of the city to be stoned and that's when he prayed to Jesus. Nothing about another vision. All NT Christians called on the Lord Jesus Christ (I Cor.1:2)

23

Watching the show

by Teddnzo in

i’m new to apostate stuff but have gone deep down a few rabbit holes of late so want to see both sides to everything .

im going to a congregation but am viewed as a bit of a black sheep because i question lots of things but not enough to cause too much trouble.. i’m intrigued watching the show.

in my heart i’m pretty sure the governing body are fakes and charlatans.. the entire thing is a big con game.

Vanderhoven7

Welcome to the forum Ted. Looking forward to your input.

69

Where Does Watchtower Doctrine Contradict Scripture?

by Vanderhoven7 in

here are some areas that i have found:.

not only is watchtower eschatology offbase, which is not critical, but so is watchtower soteriology … which is critical.

the bible says not to put trust in men who cannot save.

Vanderhoven7

Here are some areas that I have found:

Not only is Watchtower eschatology offbase, which is not critical, but so is Watchtower soteriology … which is critical. For example:

The Bible says not to put trust in men who cannot save. Watchtower says unless you put your trust in men in Warwick you cannot be saved.

The Bible says, you must be born again or you will not enter or see the kingdom. There are no exceptions. Watchtower says you don't have to be born again to see the kingdom.

The Bible says without the indwelling Holy Spirit, you do not belong to Christ (Romans 8:9). Watchtower says you can belong to Christ without the indwelling Holy Spirit.

The Bible says that there is no life for those who do not eat his flesh and drink his blood. Watchtower says you do not need to eat his flesh or drink his blood to be saved and have life…. But you should attend the memorial where sometimes no one consumes the emblems.

The Bible says to honor Jesus as you honor the Father. Watchtower says that you cannot even address Jesus to thank him for dying for your sins. All you can do is tack on his name at the end of a prayer even though he is not your mediator.

The Bible says, believers in Jesus are saved and have eternal life right now. Watchtower says you can't know you are saved until and if you survive Armageddon and even then you won't know for 1000 years.

Apparently JWs would rather trust men and their word rather than God and His word.

13

Hawaii- Victim Abused by JW Elder Awarded $40 Million

by Newly Enlightened in

https://youtu.be/h0fwwtemmvi.

Vanderhoven7

Apparently not only the abuser...how are they going to collect from him in jail?

https://youtu.be/AlaegTfekzc

113

Luke 23:43 the NWT

by Ade in

luke 23:43 - and jesus said to him, "positively i say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.

nwt places comma here , giving a totally different meaning to the verse.

now the average jw uses this to back their doctrine and it seems in itself virtually impossible to reason with them on it.

Vanderhoven7

Did Jesus go to paradise that day or did he go to the grave or did he go and preach to demons in hell. The grave and hells prison do not equate with paradise.

Certainly the thief recognized his sin, repented and believed in Jesus recognizing him as Lord.

16

Is Disfellowshipping properly legislated?

by Rattigan350 in

in the insight book under expelling, it refers to 1 cor 5 and titus 3 and 2 thess 3 as the basis for disfellowshipping.they've often said that the governing body was stated in acts 15 of the apostles and older men.

however, why was there no decree or letter issued by the governing body or apostles and older men and sent out to the congregations, detailing the principles of disfellowshipping?

it is all paul.

Vanderhoven7

Welcome to the Forum EasyPrompt!

Looks like you have an accurate bead on the Watchtower Slave.

16

Is Disfellowshipping properly legislated?

by Rattigan350 in

in the insight book under expelling, it refers to 1 cor 5 and titus 3 and 2 thess 3 as the basis for disfellowshipping.they've often said that the governing body was stated in acts 15 of the apostles and older men.

however, why was there no decree or letter issued by the governing body or apostles and older men and sent out to the congregations, detailing the principles of disfellowshipping?

it is all paul.

Vanderhoven7

Why is the Faithful Slave deleting shunning videos?

Could Russia and Norway be influencing?

https://youtu.be/hGPx0oui0GY