Posts by Vanderhoven7

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Vanderhoven7

@Sea Breeze

Where did the religious leaders in Jesus day get torment after death?

And where did the term Abraham' Bosom originate, if it also not found in the Old Testament?

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Vanderhoven7

Rest in Peace

Always speak faith to death,

40

Dates and times

by jhine in

last night at my bible study group we looked at 1thessalonians ch 5 .

we have been working through the whole letter.

verses 1-11 start with .

Vanderhoven7

1874, 1914, 1918, 1925, 1975, before the close of the century

"Given that over the years people have tried to work out a date for the end what is the point of that? "

The Faithful Slave has always tried to prove Jesus a liar.

144

Hailstone message AND everyone will be saved? Questions

by slimboyfat in

i’ve not been paying close attention to watchtower developments, but talking to a jw yesterday it occurred to me the society (yes, still use that term - old school) have been sending out mixed messages in recent years.

from what i gather, a few years ago the gb announced that during the great tribulation jws would be required to preach a “hailstone message of judgement” which involved telling people it was too late for them to repent and they were definitely going to be destroyed.

there were hints that this could be very soon, “any day now” preaching could stop and the hailstone message come in, kind of thing.

Vanderhoven7

All to conclude that Watchtower and the Faithful Slave are redundant to salvation and/or survival into the new system.

How to shoot yourself in the foot!

7

Wow! Been a long time...

by daniel-p in

jw
friends

wow!

it's been... lemme check... 8 years since i logged in here!

(and 18 years since first coming here as i was in the middle of my crisis of conscience) .

Vanderhoven7

Welcome back. Take off your coat; stay a while and share what's been happening with you and yours. 😎

3

The History and Impact of Disfellowshipping and Shunning (Dr. M. James Penton)

by iloowy.goowy in

the history and impact of disfellowshipping and shunning (dr. m. james penton).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwdv1-apzlc.

the history and impact of disfellowshipping and shunning: a jehovah's witness inquisition by dr. m. james penton, 2003. recording of a discourse delivered at the " out of the watchtower - into christ" convention of former jehovah's witnesses in england and wales, where he discusses how the watchtower evolved its doctrine on disfellowshipping and shunning by twisting scripture, and the impact this has had on many watchtower victims.

Vanderhoven7

Here is an excellent shorty-short video outlining the so-called difference between Hard and Soft WT shunning practices.

https://youtube.com/shorts/OKCLfO66MFU?si=I_U-KN6c3kFll19h

32

Governing Body Memes

by jw07 in

are there any sites with collections of governing body memes?

i see memes as a very effective way of getting the truth about the truth across without lengthy debate.

an effective meme is point and shoot since comedy holds the attention, jolts logic, is memorable, and is more likely to be viral.. something like this: http://t.qkme.me/3674l2.jpg.

Vanderhoven7

This is one of the best Mormon memes in my books.

32

Governing Body Memes

by jw07 in

are there any sites with collections of governing body memes?

i see memes as a very effective way of getting the truth about the truth across without lengthy debate.

an effective meme is point and shoot since comedy holds the attention, jolts logic, is memorable, and is more likely to be viral.. something like this: http://t.qkme.me/3674l2.jpg.

Vanderhoven7

Morman memes work well

23

How will history treat Judge Rutherford?

by Vanderhoven7 in

mark jones writes:.

how will history treat joseph rutherford?.

like ben gorden has said, it would depend on who’s looking back.

Vanderhoven7

EA writes

Rutherford and his associates taught that CT Russell “went home”, meaning the Watchtower teaching back then was that Watchtower leaders would ascend to heaven at death.

Rutherford and Russell were like Jannes and Jambres, of whom the scriptures say “Now in the way that Janʹnes and Jamʹbres opposed Moses, so these also go on opposing the truth. Such men are completely corrupted in mind, disapproved as regards the faith. Nevertheless, they will make no further progress, for their folly will be very plain to all, as it was with those two men.” (2 Timothy 3:8,9)

The scriptures make clear that the resurrection has not occurred yet. The only person who has ascended to heaven is Jesus. He was seen by others after his resurrection and before his ascension to heaven. When the heavenly resurrection occurs, there will be witnesses.

There were no witnesses to Russell’s “supposed” resurrection or to Rutherford’s. The current Watchtower leaders are liars when they say that so-called anointed Watchtower leaders have gone to heaven.

2 Timothy 2:16–18

“But reject empty speeches that violate what is holy, for they will lead to more and more ungodliness, and their word will spread like gangrene. Hy·me·naeʹus and Phi·leʹtus are among them. These men have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred, and they are subverting the faith of some.”

Russell and Rutherford as well as all the Watchtower leaders following them have taught many God-dishonoring doctrines, misleading religious-minded people away from the chastity due the Christ. Watchtower leaders have caused those following them to commit spiritual fornication. Watchtower is like Jezebel. Christ will throw her into a sickbed, and all of her children will share in her plagues.

Revelation 2:20–23

“Nevertheless, I do hold this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezʹe·bel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and misleads my slaves to commit sexual immorality and to eat things sacrificed to idols. And I gave her time to repent, but she is not willing to repent of her sexual immorality. Look! I am about to throw her into a sickbed, and those committing adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds. And I will kill her children with deadly plague, so that all the congregations will know that I am the one who searches the innermost thoughts and hearts, and I will give to you individually according to your deeds.”

Lovers of Jehovah will separate themselves from Watchtower to avoid sharing in Watchtower’s sins. Jesus is permanently “disfellowshipping” the Watchtower organization.

https://youtu.be/CKK850qhGWs?si=ZFQAQOoWS9UxATy1

23

How will history treat Judge Rutherford?

by Vanderhoven7 in

mark jones writes:.

how will history treat joseph rutherford?.

like ben gorden has said, it would depend on who’s looking back.

Vanderhoven7

Mark Jones writes:

How will history treat Joseph Rutherford?

Like Ben Gorden has said, it would depend on who’s looking back. We can see a perfect example of how the Jehovah’s Witnesses will remember him by quoting Ben himself:

I see Rutherford as a man of many imperfections who also happened to be great organizer and motivator, and was able to progress in knowledge and Bible understanding. Beside that he was just a man dedicated to spreading the good news of Gods Kingdom to all the earth.
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What’s interesting is, even Ben knows that the “understanding” and “Bible knowledge” that Rutherford was spreading is not what Jehovah’s Witnesses now believe. In other words, if you were to teach the things he was teaching today you would be disfellowshipped.

Much like if you were to ask white supremacist skinheads what they think of Adolf Hitler, you’d get a different answer than you’d expect if you asked a regular person. They’d likely tell you that Hitler was a wonderful man who kept his promises, loved animals, banned animal testing and restored Germany’s economy. They would probably play down the 6 million Jews, the seige of Leningrad or extermination of disabled German children.

Rutherford will be remembered by the Jehovah’s Witnesses much like Ben has described. However, the pages of history wont be so kind. Rather than make this an opinion biased answer, I will state historical facts and cite my sources:

He was an alcoholic, a drunkard, unkind to Bethel staff, prone to bursts of anger, foul mouthed and a bigot - and that was a description from those who worked closely with him! Read the full letter by clicking the link here:
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Like Donald Trump, he viciously attacked the reputation of those close to him who disagreed with him. Below is Rutherford’s public reply to the personal letter (above) sent to him by someone who dared to highlight their concerns.

'For four years past the writer of that letter has been entrusted with the confidential matters of the Society. It now appears that the writer of that letter, without excuse, libels the family of God at Bethel, and identifies himself as one who speaks evil against the Lord's organization, and who is a murmurer and complainer, even as the Scriptures have foretold (Jude 4-16; 1 Cor. 4:3; Rom. 14:4). - Watchtower 1939 Oct 15 pp.316-317

He was even successfully sued by Watchtowers own legal council for $15,000.
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He predicted that Armageddon would come by 1942.
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"Receiving the gift, the marching children clasped it to them, not a toy or plaything for idle pleasure, but the Lord's provided instrument for most effective work in the remaining months before Armageddon." Watchtower 1941 Sep 15 p.288

He encouraged Witnesses to put off having children until after Armageddon.

"Would it be Scripturally proper for them to now marry and to begin to rear children? No, is the answer, which is supported by the Scripture . Those Jonadabs who now contemplate marriage, it would seem, would do better if they wait a few years, until the fiery storm of Armageddon is gone..." Face the Facts (1938) pp.46-50
"...mark the words of Jesus, which definitely seem to discourage the bearing of children immediately before or during Armageddon Watchtower 1938 November 1 p.324

He believed that love between a man and a woman was “a delusion” and taught that people should only get married if they cant stay celibate.

"God's consecrated people do well to refrain from marriage unless they find themselves continually tormented with desire for sexual intercourse, in which case they should marry. For those of the younger or older who have need to marry on this score, let them dispose of the matter in candor and honesty shunning the blight, the delusions and illusions of "love" so called and courtship, which bring reproach on the holy name of Jehovah." Golden Age 1937 January 27 edition "That Delusion Called Love"

He tried to curry favor with Adolf Hitler before WWII and even claimed that the Bible Students had the same high ideals as the Nazis.

BELOW IS A TRANSLATION FROM GERMAN OF PARTS OF THE LETTER WRITTEN BY JF RUTHERFORD TO ADOLF HITLER. A PHOTOCOPY OF THE FULL LETTER CAN BE VIEWED BY CLICKING THE LINKS HERE -
[5]

[6]

[7]
"Dear Reichskanzler,
…
The Brooklyn headquarter of the Watchtower Society is pro German in an exemplary way and has been so for many years. For that reason, in 1918, the president of the Society and seven members of the board of directors were sentenced to 80 years in prison, because the president refused to use two of the magazines published in America under his direction for war propaganda against Germany. These two magazines, "The Watchtower" and "Bible Student" were the only magazines in America which refused to engage in anti-German propaganda and for that reason were prohibited and suppressed in America during the war.

In the very same manner, in course of the recent months the board of directors of our Society not only refused to engage in propaganda against Germany, but has even taken a position against it. The enclosed declaration underlines this fact and emphasizes that the people leading in such propaganda (Jewish businessmen and Catholics) also are the most rigorous persecutors of the work of our Society and its board of directors. This and other statements of the declaration are meant to repudiate the slanderous accusation, that Bible Researchers are supported by the Jews.

The conference of five thousand delegates also noted - as is expressed in the declaration - that the Bible Researchers of Germany are fighting for the very same high ethical goals and ideals which also the national government of the German Reich proclaimed respecting the relationship of humans to God, namely: honesty of the created being towards its creator.

The conference came to the conclusion that there are no contradictions when it comes to the relationship between the Bible Researchers of Germany to the national government of the German Reich. To the contrary, referring to the purely religious and unpolitical goals and efforts of the Bible Researchers, it can be said that these are in full agreement with the identical goals of the national government of the German Reich.

We are looking forward to your kind approval, which we hope to receive soon, and want to assure our highest respect to you, honorable Mr. Reichskanzler.

Yours faithfully,
Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society Magdeburg"

He was an anti-semite.

"Be it known once and for all that those profiteering, conscienceless, selfish men who call themselves Jews, and who control the greater portion of the finances of the world and the business of the world, will never be the rulers in this new earth. God would not risk such selfish men with such an important position" The Golden Age 1927 Feb 23 p.343
"The Jews were evicted from Palestine and ‘their house left unto them desolate’ because they rejected Christ Jesus, the beloved and anointed King of Jehovah. To this day the Jews have not repented of this wrongful act committed by their forefathers. … In 1917 the Balfour Declaration, sponsored by the heathen governments of Satan's organization, came forth, recognized the Jews, and bestowed upon them great favors. ... The Jews have received more attention at their hands than they really deserved." Vindication - Book II (1932) pp.257-258

He built a mansion in California using members donated funds, claiming that the prophets from the Bible would be resurrected in 1925 and could live there with him.

"The year 1926 would therefore begin about October first, 1925. ... We should, therefore, expect shortly after 1925 to see the awakening of Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Melchisedec, Job, Moses, Samuel, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, John the Baptist, and others mentioned in the eleventh chapter of Hebrews. The Way to Paradise (1925) p.224
No doubt many boys and girls who read this book will live to see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Daniel, and those other men of old, come forth in the glory of their "better resurrection," perfect in mind and body. It will not take long for Christ to appoint them to their posts of honor and authority as his earthly representatives. The world and all the present conveniences will seem strange to them at first, but they will soon become accustomed to the new methods. They may have some amusing experiences at first; for they never saw telephones, radios, automobiles, electric lights, aeroplanes, steam engines, and many other things so familiar to us." The Way to Paradise pp.226-227

When it didn't happen, he taught that they would be resurrected “soon” and all that the resurrected bible characters needed to do was to come forward and prove to Rutherford that they were from Bible times.

"Both the grantor and the grantee are fully persuaded from the Bible testimony which is the word of Jehovah God and from extraneous evidence that God's Kingdom is now in the course of establishment and that it will result beneficially for the peoples of earth; that the governing power and authority will be invisible to men but that the kingdom of God will have visible representatives on the earth who will have charge of the affairs of the nations under supervision of the invisible ruler, Christ. That among those who will be thus the faithful representatives and visible governors of the world will be David, who was once King over Israel; and Gideon, and Barak, and Samson, and Jepthai, and Joseph, formerly ruler of Egypt, and Samuel the prophet and other faithful men named with approval in the Bible at Hebrews 11th. chapter. The WATCH TOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY shall hold said title perpetually in trust for the use of any or all of the men above named as representatives of God's kingdom on earth and that such men shall have possession and use of said property hereinabove described as they may deem for the best interest for the work in which they are engaged. Any persons appearing to take possession of said premises shall first prove and identify themselves to the proper officers of said Society as the person or persons described in Hebrews chapter eleven and in this deed." Golden Age 1930 Mar 19 pp.400,401

When his prophecy failed, he moved into the mansion by himself and it became his private residence.

He personally wrote more than 26 books and over 50 booklets. None of which are ever quoted or referred to in Watchtower literature because they’re considered “old light” (in other words - they’re not true!).
He owned two Cadillacs during the depression - bought using donated funds.
[8]

So how one remembers JF Rutherford is entirely dependent on if they’re emotionally attached to an organization that praises him as “a great organizer and motivator… able to progress in knowledge and Bible understanding.” And if any flaws are brought to their attention they can shrug them off as “…he was just a man dedicated to spreading the good news of Gods Kingdom to all the earth”

However, if one if concerned with facts and evidence (notice my points are all referenced) he will be remembered as as a charlatan, a conman, an anti-semite, a bigot, a drunk and a bully.